Theology ... Deep Sophisticated Philosophy or Useless Mind-numbing Pablum?

darwins beagle's picture

Vocal atheism is often accused of superficiality when it comes to the sophistication of theological knowledge. We are often taken to task because our critique too often focuses on fundamentalist interpretations of biblical dogma without acknowledging the diversity of theological thought on the subject and ideas that have been put forth by deep thinkers that may have devoted their entire life to that particular problem.

That sounds like it could be a valid criticism. I have been trying to check it out. I've have now read several theology textbooks. I have read many internet papers of these "sophisticated arguments". And so far ... I don't see it. These "sophisticated arguments" don't deliver anything of substance. Let's look at Karen Armstrong.

Ms. Armstrong is a former Catholic Nun. She has distinguished herself in academia by becoming an expert on not only Christianity but Islam as well. She has recently written a book, The Case for God in response to books by atheists such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

Ms. Armstrong is certainly no fundamentalist. She does not deny any premise of science that I know of, nor does she hold to the idea of biblical inerrancy. Indeed, it is her premise that religious fundamentalism is a distinctly unorthodox view of religion. It is a view that became popular only relatively recently, ironically due to the rise of modern science.

According to Ms. Armstrong it was Isaac Newton who provided the impetus for religious fundamentalism as we see it today. Newton work led him and others to see the world as mechanically complex. This caused God to be viewed as an intelligent being. Thus, God was the superscientist in the sky. He must be omnipotent and omniscient. Nature was seen as the proof of his existence.

The problem here, as Ms. Armstrong is not adverse to acknowledge, Nature doesn't reveal an omnipotent and omniscient God who intelligently designed the place. It is very much of a haphazard contraption filled with jerry-rigged "Rube Goldberg machines" that often do not appear intelligently designed. Modern science has shown this to be true to Ms. Armstrong (and my) satisfaction. Hence, for Ms. Armstrong, not only did Newton's view of God form the roots of religious fundamentalism, it also formed the roots of atheism. When God is pictured as this superbeing, he can be proved wrong and falsified.

But don't give up on God, says Ms. Armstrong. What is needed is to return to a more traditional view of God. According to Ms. Armstrong, early religionists did not view God necessarily as a person at all. They certainly did not view the scriptures as the inerrant word of God. No, they viewed their religion much as we do good music, poetry, or a play.

A person in a church, synagogue, temple, or mosque 500 to a thousand years ago would have been read scripture in the context of sacred ceremonies that were being performed for the occasion. The idea was that the person would be caught up in the moment. Like good music, poetry or a meaningful story, the person could be taken to a different mental plane. The sensations could be ecstatic. That was the purpose of religion ... and not only Christianity, but all religions. Or so says Ms. Armstrong.

For her, the essence of God is his ineffability. Nothing about God is such that can be put into words. God is completely incomprehensible. Thus, it makes no sense to ask even if God exists. All aspects of God are indefinable. If you say he does or doesn't exist, you've defined that aspect. Thus this question, indeed ... ANY question concerning God's nature is a meaningless question.

First, let me say that if all the other 85% of Americans who label themselves as theists believed as Ms. Armstrong does, I would not be writing this blog. I would not have devoted nearly as much of my time trying to understand religion and religious beliefs as I have. I simply wouldn't care. Her theology is not a theology that intrudes itself into the everyday workings of the world. The belief would not affect my life one way or the other.

However, the other 85% don't believe the way Ms. Armstrong believes. In fact, I don't think I would be far off saying virtually no one believes as she does. So one of the first complaints I would have is that no one has time to respond to all potential arguments that no one really believes in the first place. So vocal atheism's failure to address her particular argument represents pragmatism more so than ignorance.

But let's do address her argument. I am a firm believer that the person making the argument should be allowed to define terms. But those terms need to mean something in order for the argument to be useful. Ms. Armstrong's definition of God is that which is ineffable or indefinable. That doesn't mean anything ... almost by definition (intentional irony). God is completely non-understandable so there cannot be an argument for it or against it logically.

But Ms. Armstrong sees virtue in this ... Kenosis. The word "Kenosis" is derived from the Greek word for emptiness or emptying. The theological concept of Kenosis that I am familiar with is one that has been used to explain why things like evil exists in the world: why Jesus, even though God-incarnate, seems at times by Gospel accounts to be unaware of his divinity, etc. The idea is that in order for God to experience the human condition that God being all-powerful chose to limit himself. He in effect emptied himself of his powers.

However, Ms. Armstrong uses the term in a different way. Individual humans can undergo Kenosis. They empty themselves. Of what? One's thoughts, emotions, will ... any mental phenomenon you can think of. I suppose the idea is that by doing so the ineffable God fills the void. In Ms Armstrong's words, "It's a perpetual discipline – kenosis – going outside yourself into sort of disciplined unknowing . And that can bring a great satisfaction if you work at it."

How does it bring one satisfaction? A "disciplined unknowing" doesn't tell us how the universe got here in the first place. It doesn't give us a moral code by which to live our life. It doesn't tell us what happens to our consciousness after we die. In short, it gives us no information to the hard questions that religion has traditionally claimed to provide.

To me Ms. Armstrong's religion is nothing more than Buddhistic-like meditation. I see nothing wrong with that. I've tried it. Meditation can lead to that "gooey good" feeling one gets from a sense that the universe/world/one's personal existence/whatever is more mysterious than one can possibly imagine. I suspect that is where Ms. Armstrong's satisfaction comes from.

But this is nothing more than a "sense of wonder". Many things can give us that. For me the thing that works the best is not the unsolvable mystery, it is the fascination in the process of understanding how the natural world works. For me that has nothing to do with God. And the fact is, nothing Ms. Armstrong is advocating necessarily has anything to do with God either. In fact, one could make the logical argument that it can't. If it did have something to do with God then we would have defined some aspect of God and this is what she says we explicitly can't do.

Her theological concept doesn't lead to understanding. It leads to obscuration. It is not a deep philosophical concept. It is useless pablum.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association
Quote:

For her, the essence of God is his ineffability. Nothing about God is such that can be put into words. God is completely incomprehensible. Thus, it makes no sense to ask even if God exists. All aspects of God are indefinable. If you say he does or doesn't exist, you've defined that aspect. Thus this question, indeed ... ANY question concerning God's nature is a meaningless question.

On a purely heuristic level, isn't declaring something "indefinable" actually a form of definition? Would you agree that it is rationally impossible to assert anything at all about a supposed object that actually is "indefinable?" I find it interesting the way that some theists (including Ms. Armstrong, it would seem) use this argument to avoid having to meet any reasonable standard of evidence, but nonetheless make authoritative assertions based on their own presumptions about the qualities they presume that their supposed deity embodies. Isn't congnitive dissonance fun?

TTFN,
Blackout
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darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association
blackout wrote:

On a purely heuristic level, isn't declaring something "indefinable" actually a form of definition? Would you agree that it is rationally impossible to assert anything at all about a supposed object that actually is "indefinable?" I find it interesting the way that some theists (including Ms. Armstrong, it would seem) use this argument to avoid having to meet any reasonable standard of evidence, but nonetheless make authoritative assertions based on their own presumptions about the qualities they presume that their supposed deity embodies. Isn't congnitive dissonance fun?

(1) My guess is that Ms. Armstrong would not call it a definition. She might phrase it more like, no matter what you possibly think God is or may be, you're wrong

(2) I most certainly agree it is impossible to rationally assert anything at all about such an object. Ironically, it is a rejection of rationality and by rejecting rationality one can do exactly the opposite ... they can irrationally assert everything. I don't think it is a coincidence that the irrational assertions they make concerning God are the assertions that they most want God to be.

For instance, Ms Armstrong seems to assert that kenosis allows one to commune with the ineffable God. In all fairness, she may be asserting that we are all part of the ineffable God and kenosis allows us to become more fully a part of it. But, just saying whatever it is that she is saying DOES define God. It says that God is capable of commuing with/incorporating us when we "empty" ourselves.

(3) I also strongly agree that theists do use this type of argument. I call it the argument from incomprehensibility:

God is incomprehensible, therefore God exists.

Ms. Armstrong would take exception. She would say that God's existence is a meaningless question. God doesn't exist and God doesn't NOT exist. If you find that incomprehensible then that just shows God's ineffability.

(4) The problem I have is this gobbledygook! Yet its proponents claim that if you don't deal with this gobbledygook your criticisms of theology are superficial. They see these arguments as sophisticated philosophy. In actuality it is an admission that one does not know what they are talking about. If that is the case, then why waste any time addressing it? ... other than for the fact that it sometimes fun to analyze bullshit.

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

bridge's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

I still love to read your blogs. You've always got such a strong argument, and you make things interesting. I see why you say this nun isn't making her argument very well. Sounds like she shouldn't have written the book in the first place.

I still, however, kinda like the design argument. Nature is very complex, as are all living things. It seems suspicious to me that a living creature is made so perfectly as to have complex systems for breathing, digesting, and processing energy. It's hard for my mind to grasp that this could have happen by accident, as well as to the other multitudes of living animals and plants and processes that make the Earth function as a whole. That's just me.

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

First, let me say that I don't think Ms. Armstrong's book is useless. She has interesting views on how early people viewed religion. I just don't think she has a very coherent argument concerning God.

Next, the design argument is one in which I could write a long blog about. So I think I will. Give me a week and I'll post it. In the meantime, let me say that under naturalistic explanations it is no more of an accident that those complex systems formed than it is an accident that snowflakes show 6-axis symmetry. Those complex systems formed due to selective pressures of local environments acting on the gene pools of populations. In other words, it wasn't a process whereby just any thing could have happened. It was a process in which natural forces favored certain outcomes over others.

Cheers,

DB

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

... do you have a particular system you would like for me to address in my upcoming post on the argument from design? You mentioned "breathing, digesting, and processing energy".

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

I hope you don't mind me coming in on the brainstorming (like bridge, I love to read your blogs.)

How about one of the systems that didn't branch off too terribly much? Breathing, for example, has taken something like three different paths -- lungs, gills, and skin/whole body (flies, for example). While it's possible (likely?) that these aren't really three different paths, but rather different sections of progression (skin -> gills -> lungs), I think that would be harder to make clear than, say, the heart (at least, perhaps, to the laymen).

I hope I'm making sense.



I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

Naturalistic evolution isn't a planned and charted path. Once a population splits into separate gene pools they are going to evolve differently. They will find different solutions to the same problems. Take your example of the heart ...

Many invertebrates have a single chambered heart, fish have two-chambered hearts, lizards have 3-chambered hearts, mammals and birds have 4-chambered hearts. Some invertebrates don't have any heart.

All systems have interesting evolutionary stories to tell. I can go with any one that people might want to hear about.

Cheers,

DB

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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

afungus amongus's picture

You turned an atheist circlejerk into a discussion. Yay!

Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Vocal atheism is often accused of superficiality when it comes to the sophistication of theological knowledge. We are often taken to task because our critique too often focuses on fundamentalist interpretations of biblical dogma without acknowledging the diversity of theological thought on the subject and ideas that have been put forth by deep thinkers that may have devoted their entire life to that particular problem.

I think, regardless of whether or not any kind of higher being exists and regardless of how "deep" religion/spirituality can get, this is one of the biggest things that bugs me. In every single debate I've ever seen on the matter, the atheist(s) treat all the theists as if they were all fundamentalist Christian. It seems to me that that kind of pigeonholing does more harm than good to the conversation/debate, regardless of how irrational the atheists think the "god argument" is. It may be that 85% of the theists involved are fundamentalist Christians, but that still leaves the other 15% who aren't fundamentalist and may not even be Christian at all. However, when a person automatically pigeonholes everyone they're opposing, they also label them with a certain set of assumptions that become extremely difficult to overcome (if you've watched/participated in political debates, you might have seen this with the wingnuts when they determine that a person is an "Evil Liberal" or "Evil Conservative," everything becomes rhetoric of the Other Side, even if the person is actually also on the Same Side, just not as extreme).

There are a number of different views on what "god" is or isn't. It seems counterintuitive to assume that everyone believes in the Christian version (let alone the fundamentalist Christian version) and run arguments based on that assumption (which is what I see pretty much all the time).



I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association
dragonwolf wrote:

I think, regardless of whether or not any kind of higher being exists and regardless of how "deep" religion/spirituality can get, this is one of the biggest things that bugs me. In every single debate I've ever seen on the matter, the atheist(s) treat all the theists as if they were all fundamentalist Christian.

The reason for this is because the only thing that we have to go on about what a theist's beliefs should be is the bible. And fundamentalists are the Christians that most stand by the bible.

Now other Christians will say that many biblical stories are allegories or metaphors. They say that these stories weren't meant to be taken literally. For the most part this is bullshit. It appears to me that they were most definitely MEANT to be taken literally. The Gospel of Luke has a genealogy of Jesus that goes all the way back to Adam. The author of Luke quite obviously thought Adam was an historical person. These people MEANT for the bible to be taken at face value.

The problem with fundamentalists is that refuse to see that when you do take the bible at face value, very much of the bible is dispicable. The problem with the non-fundamentalists is that they have to make up an allegorical or metaphorical interpretation to substitute for what the bible actually says. No two people come up with the same thing.

I have (only half jokingly) said that if you spend 15 minutes talking to 10 Christians about a particular passage in the bible you will come up with 10 different interpretations. Spend 30 minutes with those same people and you will come up with 20. All of them mutually exclusive.

Again I don't see that as a fault of the atheist. I see it as a fault of theists who claim to share a belief (Christianity) but cannot give us an agreed upon belief to analyze.

Cheers,

DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

For one, you'll never get an agreed-upon belief. If you could, there wouldn't be 500 denominations of Christianity (and that doesn't include the individuals who may or may not agree with everything their chosen denomination teaches) and a hundred different religions in general (that we know of). I've even seen atheists who believe things that other atheists would think is also a load of bull. No one shares exactly the same beliefs with anyone else unless at least one of them is following unquestioningly (leaving aside your opinion that anyone who applies any amount of thought to theology in general will become agnostic or atheist).

Second, as I've mentioned, you've fallen into the trap that everyone that is a theist believes in the Christian view of $Deity. While that may be true in most cases (since most people are Christian), I've seen atheists go back to that even when it's made clear that one or more of the theists aren't Christian and don't have an anthropomorphic view of $Deity, but rather, perhaps, a pantheistic view. These people bring an entirely different view to the table, and when you paint them with the Christian brush, the view is typically missed. Even if you still think it's crap, it would at least give you a different angle to debate with, instead of the same, tired arguments that surround fundamentalist Christianity.

I don't necessarily see any of it being the "fault" of anyone. Both sides have their shortcomings. I've described what I've seen in the atheist side (primarily because it bugs me more than the Christianity side, in part because I've become desensitized to the inconsistencies of Christian belief; those inconsistencies are one of the primary reasons why I left Christianity), and you've talked about what you've seen on the theist (or at least, and technically, Christian) side.



I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

(1) It is not a trap. It is an unavoidable piece of the argumentative landscape. Most atheists I know are well aware that it is there and it must be transversed. Many Christians/theists try to hide behind it.

(2) If you are having a one-on-one argument and the atheist persists in conflating your views with that of Christians whose views you do not share, then one of two things is happening.

(A) The atheist is not listening and is indeed in the wrong.
(B) You have failed to tell the atheist what your views are in any meaningful manner and it is you who are in the wrong.

If it is a general argument involving a lot of people then the argument may not be meant to apply to you. You are being unfair to judge it as though it does. You have no right to expect the atheist to address your individual belief that perhaps no one other than you holds.

Now if you wish we can make it a one-on-one argument. But that means that you are going to have explain exactly what it is that you believe in. Inferring from what you said above, I assume you to be some sort of a pantheist. That would mean that you see entire universe as being God.

If so then since everything that does exist exists, then your God exists. But your God doesn't necessarily do anything that Gods are traditionally supposed to do ... create the universe, give us a moral compass, provide meaning for our life, answer prayers, ensure that our consciousness extends beyond our mortal life, etc. In short your God is useless and for me meaningless.

The problem I have with a pantheistic God is ... why call it God? Why not call it ... the universe? You would get less confusion that way.

Cheers,

DB

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association
Quote:

I think, regardless of whether or not any kind of higher being exists and regardless of how "deep" religion/spirituality can get, this is one of the biggest things that bugs me. In every single debate I've ever seen on the matter, the atheist(s) treat all the theists as if they were all fundamentalist Christian.

I would suggest that this perception is probably driven by the fact that when one engages in discussions of this sort on "teh internets," the most commonly vocal defenders of the theistic position are usually representing some form of fundamentalist christianity. Of course, once you boil down the beliefs of the myriad of christian sects, there really isn't all that much difference (theologically speaking) between the most liberal and the most conservative christians, and for that matter, between christians and more or less every other religion out there. For example...

Almost without exception, all religious belief systems assert the existence of some sort of supernatural force or power which has or had some meaningful influence on human events. This assertion is the essential core belief on which all other theological arguments are by necessity made. Of course, this assertion is completely without any actualy, objective rational basis, and it doesn't matter if your a snake-handling biblical literalist, or an ecclectic neo-pagan relativist. From Al Quaeda to the Roman Caltholic Church to the Yellow Hat sect of Buddhism, the same basic belief lies at the center of all theistic philosophy.

In other words, the style of various religious sects and beliefs may be different, but the substance is almost always the same. It might be more pleasant to have a conversation with those rare vocal theists who aren't members of some fundamentalist christian sect, but in the end the argument is the same. The theist asserts the existence of his or her particular version of the supernatural boogem they think is "behind it all," and the atheists says, "prove it." This essential distillation has been at the heart of the theism vs. atheism debate for quite literally thousands of yeras, and to date not ONE theist known to history has been able to carry the burden of logical proof that his assertions require.

TTFN,
Blackout
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