So now oil's not a fossil fuel?

caliban's picture

Shock, amazement, my 4th grade science teacher lied! Yet now scientists are saying that we are not running out of oil, but instead, oil may actually be renewing itself. What will this mean in a world becoming obsessed with "going green?" How will this impact people's opinion's on the constantly rising gas prices, when indeed there is no shortage at all?

I first heard of this when it was discovered that some of the old oil wells were not exactly empty... they were filling back up. We were all taught that oil was created through a millenia-long process, starting with the death of ancient plants and animals. Their organic matter would be compressed together, and over the years, through a combination of pressure and heat, turn to oil. Now, the new theory is that oil is actually a bi-product of the earth's core. Sadly, this has been known since 1951. The Russians made major strides in this area of research, while Americans insisted a peak was near.

This gives us a whole new perspective on the "oil crisis". If there is no shortage of oil, then why do prices continue to rise? What does this mean for global warming, if we will not be forced to make a transition to cleaner technologies? It wouldn't surprise me that the major oil companies knew about this for years.

I think we should make the best of this discovery. The transition to any alternative energy source would still be a long one, and in the meantime, it's comforting to know that there is no immediate shortage or crisis on our hands. It also proves that today's theory's are certainly not perfect, new discovery's can and always will be made. The world will go round as it always has, still powered by oil.

sources
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/3952
http://www.rense.com/general67/oils.htm
http://planetgore.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTY0NzIzMzQ0YTA1NWJkOWQ1ZmY...

afungus amongus's picture

Why aren't major news companies pouncing on this story? How come your links are conservative fringe groups? Your theory about abiogenesis of petroleum is total bunk. Here's a legitimate source: http://static.scribd.com/docs/j79lhbgbjbqrb.pdf

However, at the time that the abiogenic theory was at its peak from the 1950s to the 1980s, it was not possible to assess the relative merits of these two theories objectively on the basis of the then existing scientific data and this only became possible with the development of much more sophisticated techniques for the analysis of the organic constituents in petroleum such as GC/MS in the 1980s. As a result, a much more detailed understanding of the pathways of organic constituents from source rocks to petroleum was established which offered convincing evidence to support the biogenic theory. By contrast, the abiogenic theory made no real attempt to explain the formation of the very complex mixture of organic compounds which make up oil.

A major claim of the Russian-Ukrainian theory of abiogenic hydrocarbon formation is that it had major successes in the discovery of oil and gas deposits in crystalline basement rocks. However, it now appears that the great oil fields of the Volga-Urals region, the northern Urals and western Siberia were discovered not as a result of application of this theory as its proponents claim but by the use of conventional exploration methods which gave “the final word to the borehole”. Furthermore, recent studies of the petroleum resources of the Dnieper-Donets Basin in the Ukraine by the U.S. Geological Survey have been interpreted entirely within the framework of conventional petroleum geology with no mention made of an abiogenic source of hydrocarbons. These failures of the Russian-Ukrainian theory in areas where it has claimed its greatest successes essentially bring its role as a viable theory on which to base exploration programmes for commercial hydrocarbon deposits to an end. As a matter of fact, this theory is now largely forgotten even in the Former Soviet Union and virtually unknown in the west.

The deep gas theory of Thomas Gold is based on the assumption that deep faults play the dominant role in the continuous migration of methane and other gases to
the Earth's surface and that this methane is then converted into oil and gas in the upper layers of the Earth’s crust. However, this reaction is not thermodynamically favourable under these conditions and can not be facilitated by the presence of bacteria. In addition, deep drilling of the Siljan Ring did not offer any convincing evidence for a dominant mantle source for hydrocarbon formation there. This theory is therefore invalid.

(emphasis mine) Please try to find unbiased sources. At least avoid sources with explicit political goals.

caliban's picture

As stated by Proffesor Richard Heinberg on the Eugene Island pump 330's oil production :

"Production from Eugene Island had achieved 20,000 barrels per day by 1989; by 1992 it had slipped to 15,000 b/d, but
recovered to reach a peak of 30,000 b/d in 1996. Production
from the reservoir has dropped steadily since then."

No matter the theory, the oil is replenishing itself, at least in a couple wells. It has to be coming from somewhere - at the very least, we underestimated the size of some wells by a pretty large amount.

Also, how would the biotic theory explain hydrocarbons on other planets?
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/media/cassini-20080213.html
If it needs life to form, how would it get there? Again, why do many oil wells contain large amounts of helium as well? Helium is not made by decaying carbons, and the biotic theory does not explain why it's present in such large amounts with oil. The abiotic theory states that as oil rises upwards, it passes through layers of rock containing high levels of bacteria - explaining why it has the chemical features of a pure hydrocarbon tainted by microbial material. Moving upward, it also collected helium.

"In his 1999 book, "The Deep Hot Biosphere," Dr. Gold presents compelling evidence for inorganic oil formation. He notes that geologic structures where oil is found all correspond to "deep earth" formations, not the haphazard depositions we find with sedimentary rock, associated fossils or even current surface life."

Though Dr. Gold is a major proponent of the theory. so he will by nature be bias for it, he does have a point. Many wells are located in places that computer models show never had enough organic life to form such large amounts of petroleum. Oil is being discovered at 30,000 feet, far below the 18,000 feet where organic matter is no longer found.

The organic compounds that make up oil are nitrogen, oxygen, and sulfur. All of these can come from minerals.

Jerome R. Corsi states that

"There are no lab experiments that can produce petroleum in conformity to the pressure and temperature ranges consistent with sedimentary environment present in the Earth's crust.
In addition, there are no scientific, mathematical computations, that explain the chemical and physical process of "fossil" fuel formation in a sedimentary/organic model.
In fact, "fossil" fuel theory violates the second law of thermodynamics (diminishing entropy). The pressure and temperature is too low to account for the various hydrogen-carbon molecules present in petroleum. Or its conversion from organic detritus."


So as a theory, biotic formation is completely bunk. There's no way to prove it.

On the other hand, the abiotic theory can be explained through mathematics, and has been proven in a lab.

"Experiments to demonstrate the high-pressure genesis of petroleum hydrocarbons have been carried out using only 99.9% pure, solid iron oxide, FeO, and marble, CaCO3, wet with triple-distilled water. There were no biotic compounds or hydrocarbons admitted to the reaction chamber."


Supporting paper and all other information on the experiment can be found here:
www.phe.rockefeller.edu/docs/Energy/Mendeleev/References.doc
(it's a download)

And to clear this up this isn't my theory, I'm just choosing to support it for this blog =) Go at it as you wish, i'll do my best to back it up.

for your better source, go here: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/319/5863/604

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Put your best foot forward, just watch what you step in..."

afungus amongus's picture

we underestimated the size of some wells by a pretty large amount.

We should cut ourselves some slack, the wells are underground after all. It would be amazing if we accurately measured the capacity of every single oil well without exception. A few temporary production spikes compared to some 40,000 wells hardly proves that oil replenishes itself.

how would the biotic theory explain hydrocarbons on other planets?

Aliens. It wouldn't. Petroleum = liquid hydrocarbons, and Cassini found those on Titan. I should revise my position to say that abiogenesis of petroleum must occur, but contributes relatively little to terrestrial petroleum. Helium deposits seem to be another point in your favor. However,

The Environmental Literacy Council wrote:

The abiogenic origin theory of oil formation is rejected by most geologists, who argue that the composition of hydrocarbons found in commercial oil fields have a low content of 13C isotopes, similar to that found in marine and terrestrial plants; whereas hydrocarbons from abiotic origins such as methane have a higher content of 13C isotopes.

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1130.html

Jerome Corsi is a nutbag 9/11 conspiracy theorist who in 2005 "claimed Democratic politicians are corrupted by Iranian money and are helping the mullahs" (Wiki him). If he were making a philosophical argument I'd listen, but his claims about facts aren't worth investigating. I will try to defend the biogenic theory (of terrestrial petroleum) if you find a non-crazy source. Your download link gives me an "address not found" error.

Your last source looks legit; I must concede there is something to this theory. Does abiogenesis really account for a sizable fraction of our oil deposits? What long-term oil production rates can we expect?

caliban's picture

i put a "www." in front of the link to make it real html, if you put it in without that it seems to work. The biggest problem in this issue is that no matter what experiment you do, we can't account for the millions of years needed for biotic formation, so unless we invent time machines verifying it is impossible. From your same source -

Based on his theory, Gold persuaded the Swedish State Power Board to drill for oil in a rock that had been fractured by an ancient meteorite. It was a good test of his theory because the rock was not sedimentary and would not contain remains of plant or marine life. The drilling was successful, although not enough oil was found to make the field commercially viable. The abiotic theory, if true, could affect estimates of how much oil remains in the Earth's crust.

=)
I've seen a couple mentions of abiotic oil fields being discovered but can't find any definite sources except the above. So far the proponents of the theory say we could potentially have far more oil than we originally believed, but it would be buried much deeper than conventional drilling allows us to find.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Put your best foot forward, just watch what you step in..."

afungus amongus's picture

The biggest problem in this issue is that no matter what experiment you do, we can't account for the millions of years needed for biotic formation, so unless we invent time machines verifying it is impossible.

Suppose we had not observed macroevolution. We could still verify it by looking at phylogeny, transitional forms, biogeography, vestigial and homologous structures, ontogeny, and genetics. Similarly, there are telltale signs that oil comes from dead organic matter:13C levels (analogous to vestigial structures?) and kerogen (a transitional form). Just as observations of microevolution partially support the theory of macroevolution, observations of anaerobic decomposition, prolysis, and diagenesis partially support biogenic theory. Or so I gather from ten minutes perusing Wikipedia.

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

While oil is composed of hydrocarbons, not all hydrocarbons are oil.

We know that hydrocarbons can be produced abiotically. That has never been in doubt. Some telescopes have seen recorded methane absorption lines in gasses in outer space. When NASA landed on Saturn's moon, Titan, there were liquid lakes and rivers of methane. But methane is the simplest hydrocarbon there is; CH4. On earth methane is a gas.

It is not a significant part of the oil from our oil wells, however. The average composition of crude oil is as follows:

Alkanes 30%
Naphthalenes 49%
Aromatics 15%
Asphalts 6%

The alkanes are chain hydrocarbons and within crude oil we have chains of 5 carbon atoms (pentanes) to chains of 16 carbon atoms (hexadecanes). Those are quite a bit longer than methane (a one carbon hydrocarbon). Indeed, the Science article you linked to shows abiotic pathways only for 1 to 4 carbon hydrocarbons. I know of no abiotic pathway that makes 16 carbon hydrocarbons like hexadecane.

The naphthalenes are derivatives of naphthalene:

It is a ring structure. I know of no abiotic pathway that makes ringed structures like naphthalenes.

The Aromatics are simpler ringed compounds like benzene. I would not be surprised if there were abiotic pathways that could produce some of them. I seem to recall benzene being present in interstellar gas as well (but I could be wrong about that).

The Asphalts are more complicated, often branched hydrocarbons. I know of no abiotic pathway of producing them.

So for the most part there is no known abiotic pathways to make as complicated hydrocarbons as is found in crude oil. But BIOTIC pathways using enzymes from living organisms can make complicated hydrocarbons even more complicated than these.

Furthermore, porphyrins:

like these are found in crude oil. These are ONLY produced biotically. In fact all of the compounds found in crude oil can be produced by different algae.

Furthermore, the abiotic theory of oil production has the problem that geologically oil is not found where one might expect it (geothermal vents etc). Petroleum geologists look for sedimentary formations in which one would expect a lot of organic material to have accumulated and decomposed into oil. That has been by far the most successful strategy in finding the stuff.

Thus, the evidence strongly supports biotic oil production over abiotic production.

Cheers,

DB

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

caliban's picture

"A New Theory Is Needed

There are detractors for both the biotic oil theory and the fossil theory, and both make valid arguments. It is most likely that oil is produced by both mechanisms and also possibly as a waste product of deep living bacteria. However, no one theory can account for all the phenomena associated with oil finds. There are deposits of oil that seem to support both the abiotic oil and the fossil oil theories."

I'm just going to agree with this and leave it go, there is evidence for both sides and as of right now not enough science to support one side or another. If anyone else wishes to pick up the sword and carry on, best of luck to ya
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Put your best foot forward, just watch what you step in..."

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association
caliban wrote:

"A New Theory Is Needed

There are detractors for both the biotic oil theory and the fossil theory, and both make valid arguments. It is most likely that oil is produced by both mechanisms and also possibly as a waste product of deep living bacteria. However, no one theory can account for all the phenomena associated with oil finds. There are deposits of oil that seem to support both the abiotic oil and the fossil oil theories."

I'm just going to agree with this and leave it go, there is evidence for both sides and as of right now not enough science to support one side or another. If anyone else wishes to pick up the sword and carry on, best of luck to ya [emphasis added]

There may be evidence for both sides but that doesn't mean that each side is equally likely. See here

Cheers,

DB
===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

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