The Ethics of Prejudice

The Ethics of Prejudice: A Philosophical Defense of Christian Ethics

Introductory comments: This was written for a class I took called Christian Apologetics. It's addressed to sketpics and atheists (ie, most of my friends,) asking them to re-evaluate the knee-jerk assumption that Christianity is irrational and totally useless. A shorter version was given for the required speech presentation. So the bits are the cheesily rhetorical are supposed to be that way.

(I know there's a bit in the middle where I criticize without first doing in-depth explaining about the opposite opinion; in my defense, this was written for a class where we'd all read the article, and I simply couldn't let my word count go any higher.)

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Many of the great speakers of the past sought to sway their audience by appealing to that which was best and most noble in them. The most rousing and obvious example is of course, "What will you die for?" But this is not the question I have come to ask you.

One of the major purposes of a Christian apologist is to convert people to the faith. They, too, ask questions of evaluation, such as, "Where is God in your life?" But that is also not the question I want to ask.

Consider for a moment, if you will, the American civilization. Not just our current culture, our habits and prejudices, our day to day and news source to news source reactionary ethics—but that fine line of national identity that connects where we came from with were we are. Like any line, it has no meaning without relation to its endpoints—which is why people ask questions about nobility and God. The unspoken assumption in their rhetoric is that such a progression—and the endpoint itself—is meaningless unless it's not merely a progression, but a continuity of development, towards a good and better end.

There's been a lot said in recent years about social development, with people examining how our society got to be the way it is, as well as where we’re going—with usually the criticized aspects traced back to a particular idealist group or historical figure. There isn't much consensus on either of those, because everybody has a different agenda. What has been widely agreed upon is the current state of "post-." We are described as post-industrial, post-modern, post-9/11... and, naturally, post-Christian.

Religion’s place in today’s secular world is no small issue. Today we are struggling with a multiplicity of and savage competition between lifestyles, ethical systems, scientific developments, and cultural identities. Today’s cardinal societal virtues, such as tolerance, acceptance, and equality, are quite literally “signs of the times.” They are the only tools a “post-everything” people have to bring to this overwhelming question: “Where do we go from here?” It is my position that as a society, our rejection or acceptance of Christianity—or, more precisely, what the majority of Americans think Christianity is—will be the turning point in this confusion, and the lynchpin of the society that will evolve after. Ultimately, it comes down to this: where you see society heading, and what you think is driving it there.

This, then, is my question to you: What are you willing to settle for?

The following three points that I will present for your consideration are meant to illustrate that a society succeeding in doing what ours is trying to do—eradicate Christianity from the public sphere entirely—comes to an endpoint where no one wants to be—regardless of your theological commitments, or lack thereof.

My first point may be summarized this way: If you’re going to reject Christianity, you ought to reject the real Christianity.

The English philosopher Herbert Spencer once said, “There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”

Today, many people borrow the first part of Spencer’s famous lines, but substitute their own “eternal ignorance principle”: religion. Ironically, this kind of thinking is exactly what Spencer was talking about. Although he was no fan of Christianity himself, Spencer recognized the importance of getting a fair and impartial review of the facts before coming to a conclusion. Absorbing general public opinion or letting a few off-putting individuals form your opinion for you is intellectually foolhardy, and a strange habit for a society that claims to love all things empirically tested to have picked up.

Nonetheless, that is how Christianity has achieved its common public face today—a false front that is largely vindictive stereotype, created by ignorance and kept in place by those who should know better with a deep-seated prejudice against all things “supernatural.”

There are two major categories that objections to the faith fall into. The first is about the quality of the believers and what that reflects about the religion itself. This is usually expressed by calling Christianity “irrational.” On the one hand this opinion assumes something about what “blind faith” means, while on the other accusing believers of being, at best, uneducated, and ignorant, at worst. The second category of objection also questions the legitimacy of Christianity as an organization. This is usually expressed by the idea that it is “pre-” or “un-scientific.” This usually includes the assumption that the Bible is inaccurate or made-up.

To combat a prejudice you must first understand it. This requires knowing where it came from, what its basis is.

Of these objections, the first indicates an intellectual distance from the content of Christianity; the second reveals the critic’s suppositions about the nature of reason and the scope of science; and the third, unfamiliarity with archaeological history and evidence.

Generally speaking, it was not until after the Enlightenment, and the time of the famous philosopher Voltaire, that the modern notions of reason, science, and religion, came to be as we know them. Interestingly, this point is brought thoroughly home to people on both sides of the faith divide; on the one hand, by Pope Benedict XVI, and on the other, by secular John Ralston Saul. Benedict’s address “Reason, Faith, and the University,” and Saul’s book Voltaire’s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West both examine what it means for something to be reasonable and to be scientific. It is not the same question anymore.

Pre-Enlightenment reason was much broader than our current edition. Today, when we ask if something is reasonable, we generally mean, “Is it scientific?” For something to be scientific, it must be empirical; that is, concrete and quantifiable. If you can’t experiment on it, it’s not scientific.

The idea that data is data—you can’t fool science—quickly evolved into its popular corollary: science can’t fool you. But this assumes information speaks for itself. However, facts do not exist in isolation. They come as answers to questions, and questions are always shaped by our prejudices—sometimes consciously by our agendas, the ends we wish to achieve, making these facts are our manipulated means. A wise man once said, “No data speaks for itself. Data just lies there. People speak.” In the same vein, the famous author Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote about the importance of opinion and motive in gathering and presenting “science”: “Most men have bound their eyes with one or another handkerchief and attached themselves to some one of these communities of opinion. This conformity makes them not false in a few particulars, authors of a few lies, but false in all particulars. Their every truth is not quite true. Their two is not the real two, their four not the real four; so that every word they say chagrins us, and we know not where to begin to set them right.” So much for the myth of impartial objectivity.

Within this narrow definition of reason the entire existence and usefulness of philosophy becomes… well, academic. What is the point of discussing right and wrong—a discussion crucial to religion in particular and societies in general—when, while you can see examples of them in the world, you can’t find, let alone measure, a “unit” of good or bad?

This also throws the tools of reason into doubt. The rules of logic were before considered as reliable, if not more so, than experimentation by the scientific method. But now? The laws that govern reason are no more sensible—literally—than that “unit” of goodness.

This crippling of reason, confining it to merely empirical data, crippled society. Scientific reason gives us many things; it teaches us what and how. But it only demonstrates; it doesn’t explain. It can’t answer—can’t even ask—the question, “Why?” This is the first and foremost question of religion and philosophy.

Nonetheless, this is the legacy of reasoning the Enlightenment has left pop-philosophy today: Since philosophy can’t come up with certain answers, “faith” certainly can’t, so religion must be even less certain. Because every philosopher has a different idea, and once faith is excluded there’s no “objective” list of “right” answers with which to compare their thoughts, there must not be an actual way to go about answering ethical questions.

But this conclusion is faulty. One major reason for this is disagreement is not evidence of something not existing at all. We’re so used to considering the idea that we can be wrong about things we forget what the implications of being wrong are. If we can be wrong, we can be right. There’s something we’re being wrong about. Certain things only have meaning in relation to their opposite. They are defined by it—up and down; short and long; correct and incorrect.

This conclusion also assumes there’s only one kind of certainty: the kind you can see. But even daily life shows us this can’t be the case. Humans are fully capable of making inferences and forming logical connections between all kinds of non-empirical data. We do it at work, in our relationships—when evaluating our lives. If we don’t allow for the process of abstraction, half of our daily activities can’t take place. If that abstraction weren’t capable of allowing us to arrive at true conclusions, those daily activities wouldn’t take place functionally.

The same reason that is the heart and process of non Bible-based philosophy is the reason used by religious figures. The real, substantial difference between Christian theology and secular philosophy is that the philosopher attempts to prove his premise before drawing a conclusion. Christians start with an un-argued premise—the Bible was divinely inspired—and work from there. Interestingly, many of the conclusions Christian ethicists come up with, such as, murder is wrong, are things the larger, secular society wishes it could justify, too.

The point is, not only is reason broader than empirical evidence, but this very reliable reason is at the heart of Christianity, which is self-described as a reasonable faith. People want to choose the popular idea of ‘science’ over religion because they see it as unbiased and fair. The simple process of empirical science itself is objective in the sense many claim, but there is little of that around today. When people champion Science, they’re not talking about empirically verifiable experiments in the laboratory, the impartial and fair seeking of physical truth. Rather, they’re talking about a philosophical position: not just the non-existence, but the non-necessity of God, of religion as a whole. This is a conversion-oriented atheism full of the same proselytizing these very scientists abhor in so-called “fundamentalist Christians.” A secular society is one thing; this kind of intolerant atheism is something else entirely. If we’re going to get rid of bias, let’s be… well… fair: don’t hold Christianity to a standard to which you hold no other position, including the modern conception of science.

This goes for the historicity of the Bible, as well. One of the major factors in the uniformed critic’s opinion that Christianity is unreasonable starts with the assumption that the Bible is just there to trick people. They treat the Bible as if it sprang whole from a fully formed and evangelical Christianity in the modern context. This could not be further from the truth.

Believing the Bible to be inspired by God is a decision made in faith. Understanding the Bible to be a historically reliable text is a matter of knowing the history of the Jewish culture in which the Old and New Testaments were written, and the archaeological evidence corroborating them. In his compilation book of evidence for the historicity of the Bible, A Ready Defense, Josh McDowell argues the same tests used to determine the accuracy and reliability of other ancient documents, from the Iliad to Aristotle to Shakespeare, are the same tests that should be used when evaluating the Bible. After all, there is no reason not to, except a pre-conceived prejudice against it. When these three, the bibliographical, external and internal evidence tests, are applied, there are three unavoidable conclusions: First, we have more extant copies of books of the Bible than any other historical manuscripts; second, judged by the literary standards and motivations of the Hebrew culture in which they were written, the books are themselves internally consistent; and third, everything from the geography of the ancient world to other ancient sources of literature confirm both the styles in which the books were written and the details of historical events recorded there.

Such are the conclusions we can draw from these facts: Christianity is eminently reasonable; the most common arguments against it are based not in reason and impartial judgment of Truth, the supposed stance and aim of all science, but the clandestine championing of its opposite viewpoint. If Christianity’s opponents were really so convinced that it was such an evil, they would attack it on grounds of reality, not this fabricated “straw man” of Christianity. It is a fallacy of prejudice, justified by the would-be rationality of this post-Christian “brave new world”: if it’s empirical, it’s good.

You may not like the idea of faith in a higher being, perhaps it seems silly to you, out of place in the modern context. But Christianity has something immediately practical to offer as well, something which, for the faithful, is inseparable from their belief in God, but is also imminently acceptable, even necessary, to a secular public. Even in—especially in—a society where the separation of church and state is held so dear. In other words, we’re talking about the reasonability of Christian ethics, and its relation to contemporary societal dilemmas.

Those who wish to wholeheartedly throw out Christianity in its entirety have rarely considered what effect that would have on their society’s conception of right and wrong.

Nonetheless, we live in a self-described “post-Christian” culture. But what elements of it, exactly, are post-Christian? And if we have removed Christian ethics, what have we replaced them with? Has the change been an improvement?

My second point is dedicated to addressing this question, and may be summarized this way: Human dignity matters, and nothing respects it like Christianity.

To illustrate this, I want to start with an example of a society which has already gone the direction America seems to want to go: the Netherlands. The following should make it clear what a detrimental effect their current system of bioethics has had on their society.

Before 2001, euthanasia was illegal on the books, but condoned in practice. Now, laws are going the reverse direction. The infrequent times doctors are actually brought to trial for abusing their powers over life and death—it should be noted, by relatives or parents of the patients in question—the courts have ruled in their favor, saying they had no option but to kill. Recently, the Netherlands has been under heavy scrutiny from the rest of Europe for proposing euthanasia as the only medical solution when, even if the patient was terminal, palliative care—that is, treatment of the symptoms to make the patient’s last months comfortable and humane—has been entirely ignored. Some Dutch doctors, hearing about the British successes with palliative care, answered that they did not need to study it, as they could apply euthanasia instead.

It may be politically correct, but still a few voices of dissent have been raised in the Netherlands. A member of the House of Lords Committee on Medical Ethics stated, “We asked doctors in the Netherlands what it was like when they did their first euthanasia case. They said they agonized over it. The second case was much easier and by the third it was a piece of cake. We found that chilling.”

The medical director of the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention has studied euthanasia in the Netherlands. He observes, “What was intended as a solution for exceptional cases has become a routine way of dealing with terminal cases. The Netherlands has moved from euthanasia for the terminally ill to euthanasia for the chronically ill, from euthanasia for physical illness to euthanasia for psychological distress, and from voluntary to involuntary euthanasia." Today, the handicapped, new borns, comatose patients, and even completely healthy but depressed people have been euthanized without punishment by the courts.

Dutch criminologist Chris Rutenfrans says, “Because euthanasia is politically correct, prosecutors are often unwilling to press charges.” But it goes deeper—in many cases, a patient's "right to die" has subtly become a duty to die. Amsterdam psychiatrist Frank Koerselman says, "I frequently see people pressurized into euthanasia by exhausted and impatient relatives.” He tells of a woman whose relatives had gathered in Amsterdam for her planned euthanasia. One came from overseas. When the patient had last-minute doubts, the family said, "You can't have her come all this way for nothing." Instead of ensuring that the patient's true wishes were observed, the doctor carried out the euthanasia.

Euthanasia laws also fail to recognize who in each case is best able to decide for the sick person. Doctors have testified personally to more and more frequently overriding the wishes of patients and the family for the sake of economy or convenience, as the Dutch health care commissioned Remmelink Report found. Worse, in some hospitals there are committees being established to decide individual cases. The Weekly Standard published an article which reads, “The establishment of "independent committees" to dispatch non-consenting humans is nothing but a death penalty committee for innocents. Once begun, it is impossible—simply impossible—to limit the concept with any bright line. Abortion, of course, has always been limited by the physical act of birth… But now the Netherlands has gone much, much farther. If the "severely retarded" may be killed upon appropriate motion, second, debate, and majority vote, why not the moderately retarded? Why not the mildly retarded? Why not, in fact, anyone the "independent committee" deems as usefully dispatched?”

A former governor of Delaware described it in the Wall Street Journal as “granting the state legal authority to kill innocent individuals.” He said, “It is an abhorrent concept, with profound moral consequences. Its purpose was chillingly summarized by German cancer specialist Stephan Sahm, who is opposed to the statute: ‘Where continuing to live is only one of two legal options, everyone who burdens others with his or her continued existence is held accountable.’ The Dutch have changed the equation; life is now "only one of two legal options," and if we choose to live we will be "held accountable."

One of the most disturbing examples of euthanasia in practice occurred when a doctor—a gynecologist, not a pediatrician or expert in the disease—killed a child suffering from spina bifida, a condition in which there is an opening at the spine that may cause disability or death. He killed the child at the request of her parents, because, he later testified, she screamed in agony when touched. It’s no wonder the baby was in pain! He never closed the wound in her back. In other words, the doctor killed his patient without first attempting proper medical treatment. Yet, rather than punishing him, the trial judge praised him for his "integrity and courage," wishing him well in any further legal proceedings he might face.

But the story of Ineke Verloop, now deceased, offers us hope. She learned neither surgery nor chemotherapy was likely to cure her cancers of the throat and stomach. But the two options available to her--a hospital or a nursing home--did not appeal to the 65-year-old widow, who feared her own wishes would not be respected there. I'm not afraid of death, she said, but I don't want someone else to decide how I should die. She seriously considered euthanasia. Like most Dutch people, she knew little about the option of palliative care. Then an acquaintance told her about Hospice Rozenheuvel. Five weeks later, under the care of anti-euthanasia doctor, she was resting easily in their sun lounge. She considered herself blessed. "When I came here, I could hardly walk or talk, and I hadn't eaten for a month," she said after her arrival. "After ten days, I chat, walk and feel relaxed. I know I'm not leaving here alive, but I feel like a human being."

Ineke was finally feeling the effects of an environment that does respect human dignity. But how is it a society can move from a limited used of euthanasia in extremely severe medical cases to euthanasia as a common practice that threatens the autonomy and dignity of its citizens?

There are a few thinkers in relatively recent history who have shaped the whole course of philosophy, and the philosophy of the layman; that is, most modern views of the world start with the kinds of assumptions about reality that these thinkers proposed. David Hume’s division of knowledge into analytic and synthetic facts renders non-empirical questions irrational and irrelevant; so many people give up on ethics. Immanuel Kant’s world of joyless dedication to duty and fundamental absolutes leads many to assume that since there are too many “exceptions” in life for absolutes, there must not be any; therefore, ethics must be relative. The group-pleasing, pleasure-oriented Utilitarianism is often identified with practicality, and popular because it gives nobility to the idea of pleasure seeking while sanctifying the will of the majority. Interestingly, the simple mathematical equation of ‘will of the majority’ with ‘social good’ is directly contrary to one of America’s revolutionary laws: the respect and equal treatment of the minority.

Then there are the current thinkers who seem to have combined elements of all of these into apparently workable models of social ethics. One such is Tristram Engelhardt. His philosophy of bioethics is so close to the consequences of pushing back medical boundaries in the name of humane action demonstrated in the Netherlands, the Dutch philosophy could have been modeled off it deliberately. Why the consequences of his philosophy are so different from his well-intentioned premises becomes clear with a critical analysis of his position.

Engelhardt is not subtle about his essential thesis: “Not all humans are equal.” His goal is to redefine the parameters of the abortion debate and so-called medical “gray” areas concerning “defective” newborns, children, teens, and disabled adults. The reason for this is to promote abortion and euthanasia.

He does this by making a distinction between persons and humans. He separates ‘human’ from ‘person’ as simply a general biological category. He defines a person in two separate ways: as a self-conscious rational moral agent, and as an economic factor in society. He says when moral agents act together, the result is the “peaceable community,” a “a moral standpoint in terms of which self-conscious rational entities can speak of blame and praise.”

One interesting point is nowhere in this writing does he raise the question of what anchors this potential moral standpoint. What standards are being used by these self-conscious rational entities to make their moral judgments about praise and blame? He claims to have created an entirely legal and non-metaphysical position, but by leaving questions like this wide-open he is revealing an unspoken bias: that morality is relative; that there is no standard, divine or otherwise, to anchor our opinions about what it means to be human except biology and our opinions; and that the law, legislature, is the ultimate moral authority. This last position has already been adopted, by a philosophy called legal positivism. The consequence is that if ethical behavior is whatever the law says it is, there can be no unethical law. It makes the law our master, instead of keeping it in its rightful place as tool. This isn’t even the “it’s right because it works” pragmatic justification. Of course, the question for that proposition is—works for who? The people? Or the state?

There is also the curious fact that his two definitions of what constitutes a person are not used consistently. Although Engelhardt defines persons internally as ‘rational self-conscious moral agents,’ this is related to the external world only in terms of function; he poses himself the problem of sleep. Is the sleeping man still a rational creature? He is not currently being a self-conscious, rational moral agent, or arguably a contributing economical factor. Engelhardt answers this in terms of probability, the same solution he denies to ascribing personhood to fetuses and defective infants: the sleeping man will awake. (He ignores the fact that is also possible for a sleeping man not to awaken.)

As far as that mere function of personhood goes, he describes its worth only in terms of utility: how we are participating economically in society. This is what causes him to draw the line of personhood much farther inward in human development than even abortionists do. Supposing a child of twelve years to be rational, he is still not a person because he does not have a job, and thus an economic status, except as “burden.” His lines through humanity are arbitrary. There’s nothing in his worldview to distinguish between infants and fetuses; but infants he accords a kind of inherent status as “more” than fetuses. There’s also no difference, the way he’s drawn the defining lines, between this group, young children, or adolescents. “Worth” then becomes something that can be given and taken at will. When worth becomes a matter of performance, having meaning only in its relation of beneficence to the law, there is nothing stopping the state from redrawing the lines of “worthiness” so that any time, if it benefited the state, your ‘personhood’ could be in danger of denial. If you fail to perform well, say if, on the economic side, you become bankrupt, you are no longer a value to society. Simply put, Engelhardt’s philosophy is a reincarnation of the once-popular theory of Social Darwinism.

Engelhardt’s vision of the wanted disabled humans immunity to state-sanctioned euthanasia coming through their guardians’ protection, this idea that we can “choose” whom we want to protect to prevent injustice, ultimately fails. If the law tells us we can choose who we want to be human, the law can tell us we don’t have that right in circumstances where the state says we don’t. Why? Because in that case it’s more beneficial for the state to define that person as a thing. If every human life isn’t respected as personhood—however limited that life is, in the case of persons with disabilities, small children as yet mentally and economically undeveloped, or, as Engelhardt himself points out, the sleeping person—there is no limit to where the line for respect cannot be drawn. This redefining takes away a fundamental American idea: that each human being has rights simply because they are a human being. If we abolish that distinction in our definition of personhood, rights are no longer to be protected by the government but granted by the government. What can be granted can be taken away. Only that which is inherent is inviolable. The first makers of American law understood this: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.” What happens when we become dependent on the law for moral definitions is that the government determines how we exist as people. As Thomas Jefferson said, “Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.” By making your life seem a burden to the state, he can justify the death of any number of individuals to achieve a goal Utilitarianism is proud to call its own: the greatest good for the greatest number.

In the same vein, Engelhardt says, “A balance must be struck between the likely benefits and costs to be incurred by allowing parents to choose the circumstances under which they will become the guardians of persons, (i.e., children who are persons in the social sense and who may become so in the strict sense.)” Engelhardt has maintained that this is not a metaphysical proposition but a legal one, yet this statement defies that claim. Here he asserts two things: first, that human worth is assigned to certain humans by other humans, that it is not inherent, and second, that such worth is measured by the convenience or inconvenience it causes others. These are metaphysical suppositions about what the essence of humanity consists in. This argument has taken concrete form in the Netherlands where in practice it is not the parents but the doctors who decide whether an infant will live or die, and people considering euthanasia are reminded that their continued existence is a burden to society.

In short, Engelhardt fails to differentiate between essence and accident; between capacity
and ability. The great philosopher St. Thomas Aquinas describes the difference between a lack and privation. Something is a privation when it ought to be there, and is not. For example, blindness. It is in the nature of humans to be able to see. It is not in the nature of rocks to see. A rock not seeing is a lack; blindness in a human is privation. This relates to capacity and ability in this way: the mentally disabled person, as a human being, has the necessary “packaging” so to speak—a body, eyes, a brain. These are the physical things needed to be a self-conscious rational moral agent. They have the capacity. Because of an imperfection is the body, eyes, or brain, they do not have the ability. Because Engelhardt fails to make this distinction, it is not clear whether the people who “have rights to forbearance and who may not be used without their permission” are those who are merely capable of making moral decisions, or those who actually do participate in the peaceable community, i.e., the society with all its attendant laws. The sleeping man is considered a person because he is capable of being a moral agent even though while asleep he isn’t actually being one. But there are people who while awake disavow their identities and responsibilities as self-conscious rational moral agents. Everyone has met at least one person like this: the kind who doesn’t care about the law, about whether he’s doing good or bad, but only about doing and getting what pleases him. Are these humans “persons”? They have the capacity to participate in the peaceable community, but they do not.

Engelhardt also discusses wealth as being in “the central fabric of health care concerns” and says ,“states claim special moral prerogatives.” But why to either of these? Wealth disparities are a fact of life, but does that mean the doctor should attempt to heal his wealthy patients and not his poor ones? If the answer to this question is yes, then we are assuming that the patient is there to benefit the doctor—and not the other way around. This is a backwards relationship that flies in the face of the point of pursuing medicine. Think also about people with this capacity for economic participation but who are not active forces in the economy. They are technically non-persons; is it then not murder to kill, say, a bum? A homeless person? A bankrupt man?

Engelhardt speaks in terms of “morally relevant inequalities.” But in terms of capacity, what’s the difference between a healthy infant and someone severely mentally disabled? Elsewhere he talks about “will” verses “probably” verses “might.” He says a sleeping person will wake up again and be normal; but what about a healthy infant? They are just as incapacitated, by underdeveloped-ness, as the mentally disabled, but a healthy infant, in the normal course of biology, will become a functioning adult as surely as the sleeping adult will awaken. What this brings the difference down to is not simply “capacity” but stages of development. The earlier stages deserve less respect. This is a self-defeating position. If society undervalued its young members in the same way Engelhardt wants it to undervalue its disabled persons, there would eventually be no functioning adults left to make any decisions or be a society at all.

His lines through humanity are arbitrary. There’s nothing in his worldview to distinguish between infants and fetuses; but infants he accords a kind of inherent status as “more” than fetuses. There’s also no difference, the way he’s drawn the defining lines, between this group, young children, or adolescents. Yet someone who feels they can terminate a healthy fetus with impunity might have a hard problem doing the same to a healthy infant, toddler, or teenager.
The only reason to distance ourselves from those in need of medical aid by declaring them not to be people is to prepare ourselves for justifying their deaths. Essentially, Engelhardt asserts that an individual must ‘pull their weight’ in one or both of two ways: by acting as a moral agent and by being an economic contributor to society. If you don’t do these things, you are essentially dead weight, and not just can, but ought, to be removed.

What this conception of ethical law fails to recognize that you can compartmentalize societies but not people. Futuristic Orwellian disaster scenarios begin because those in charge fail to recognize this. In Christian terms—as phrased by an atheist who’s ethics are extremely Christian – it’s “treating people as things,” and that is the bottom line definition of sin. For a modern example, take President Obama’s removal of the “conscience clause” concerning medical activity like abortion. The conscience clause allowed pro-life medical practitioners to refrain from engaging against perceived unethical behavior against their will. With this clause removed, the state now dictates personal medical morality. Yet the conscience clause was based off a dearly beloved American freedom and cornerstone in American law: freedom of religion. The state is not to dictate where the consciences of its citizens should be directed.

The kind of utilitarian thinking Engelhardt espouses justifies everything from the current situation in the Netherlands to genocide to 1984. Everyone is so keen to avoid religion in modern philosophy they’ve backed themselves into a corner. This kind of future, the kind the Netherlands has begun to embody, is a lot closer than it appears. The ideals of what has come to be called the culture of death are already in our schools, our hospitals, and our pop-philosophy. We push away cultural expressions of Christianity because we don’t understand it anymore; and in doing so, we push away the only ethical alternative we have to Engelhardt, to the health- and freedom-destroying euthanasia of the Netherlands.

We want a guideline about what to do in difficult cases. But the guidelines he proposes make the difficult cases… easy. The guidelines are easily misapplied. They take away the safety law is supposed to provide; they make justice the whim of the powerful; they make “humanity” a committee’s slap-on-wrist rebuke to a murderer disguised as a doctor. How many of you, regardless of your attitude toward religion, don’t want to live in a safe, just, humane society?

The Christian Ethics so many are rejecting without first understanding is a viable alternative to Engelhardt and the Netherlands, one that does allow for a just social order. Rejecting what is common to ethical philosophy and Christianity in an attempt to avoid theology and separate church and the state is the embodiment of an old adage you might have heard: don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Which brings us to my last point: Because Christian ethics are necessary for the building of the very kind of society religion-rejecting secularists are after, current interpretations of the valued “separation of church and state” principle are entirely counterproductive.

It is important to be clear. This is no way advocating the removal of the separation between church and state. Such a separation is crucial for the well being of a legitimate and benevolent government, particularly for a people as diverse as Americans, and so loyal to the ideal of the democratic republic.

It is a criticism of the recent ways that just law has been unjustly applied. Mostly this is in the attitude public officials and out-spoken private citizens bring to the discussion of where the line should be drawn. There are several misunderstandings clouding the issue, that, when dispelled, allow us to understand the whole controversy in a new, more productive way.

One such confusion is over the nature of what aspects of Christianity are being included, and where. But this in turn stems from confusion about motive: the why. The underlying assumption is that Christianity has no relevancy for our law and public life; that anything even resembling it is harmful to the public sector because the only reason to continue including any element of it is so Christians can maintain a kind of majority, or ‘cultural superiority.’

My previous two points have already shown you that this attitude cannot reasonably be held in face of the evidence. There is a difference—although, for believers, a necessary link—between the faith of theology and the philosophical ethics of Christianity; and where those ethics are missing from the current discussion about what society ought to be doing, we end up with harmful consequences.

Are there arguments against this kind of reasoning? Certainly. And that is as it should be; the engaging of reasonable arguments based on evidence and logic is the common denominator and grounds of interaction among all humanity—believers and non-believers alike. What is ironic is that many shown this reasoning simply refuse to believe it—an act of faith rivaling the kind they criticize in their believing opponents.

The problem is not one of a secular society fighting a religious minority still trying to make it religious. Our current problems with interpreting the separation of church and state law followed only after the corruption of that secularization into being synonymous with a jealous atheistic worldview relying on a conception of reason and rationality limited to empirical evidence for support.

I use the phrase “jealous” deliberately because I don’t simply mean a secular culture become dominantly atheist—I’m talking about a point of view with an agenda, just as militant as the fundamentalist Christianity they despise.

Let us take a concrete example. Recently, a representative from Georgia proposed a so-called “Bible bill.” The bill declared the coming year a “Year of the Bible,” a time for reflection on values and faith for the religious among the American people. Many took offense to the proposition because they believe it inappropriate for legislature to regulate religious thought and activity in any way. Some argued the acceptance of this bill would leave it open for any religious or philosophical point of view to do the same—we could end up with a year of the Koran, or a year of the Book of Mormon. They said it’s more equal, and more fair, to not allow anyone to legislate that kind of public awareness.

These are all reasonable arguments. But what really fueled them? And what motivated the other objectors, the people who insisted that this bill is inappropriate because it’s Christian?

This shift in public opinion—from secularization to militant atheism—becomes more visible as we consider basic American history. The fact is—we’ve already had one. 1983 was declared the Year of the Bible by Ronald Reagan—complete with the blessing of Congress.

The same observation applies to the debate, several years old now, about whether it’s permissible to display the Ten Commandments in a government building. Aside from the Old Testament connotations, there’s nothing harmful in these simple statements; most of them declare what our own legislation enforces: ideas such as stealing, murder, and adultery are wrong.

What it comes down to is how people are on the defensive against Christianity. They hate it; they fear it. Why? It rarely has anything to do with its ethics, although the word “morality” has become taboo. You may have noticed this is the first time I’ve used it. It’s come to be associated with the Christianity of our childhoods—the demands on us: go to church, listen to authority, pray. We avoid it the way we avoid accumulating obligations to other people; the way we avoid calling our parents.

In short, we associate our individual experiences with a particular way of thought; we associate our experience with particular representatives of those ways of thought, with the reality of that philosophy. But for every fundamentalist who tells you you’re going to hell because you don’t believe like them, there are a hundred Christians out there living and teaching the mercy and love of God; for every opponent of evolution who hasn’t done their scientific homework, there are hundreds of believing scientists and educated lay people engaging with each other and nonbelievers alike in fruitful discussions with facts, evidence, truth. For every abusive Catholic priest there are thousands of righteous men whose wisdom, love, and Christ-like lives are fighting against that corruption, living examples of ethical behavior and justice.

When it comes to our society’s ethics, or lack thereof, when it comes to religion’s place in our society, the question is not if you believe in God or Christianity—and it never was. The question is what attitude do you bring to Christianity? Your beliefs aren’t being hindered; your freedom is not impaired; but in your denial and restriction of the religious to speak appropriately in the right setting, their rights are.

A society that rejects all public mentions of religion because it “infringes” the rights of the nonreligious to not hear it, denies the laws of equality and freedom it claims to uphold. This is the non sequitor of modern “tolerance,” an ethical principle based on an irrational prejudice. This is the message this so-called rational society sends: ‘We will be tolerant of your belief as long as it does not contradict what we believe.’

This is an interesting rift between what society claims and how it acts. Individual Christians and the concept of Christianity as a whole are both offensive; but while many may scorn at the idea of religions in general as “sops” for un-rational people, the individual Hindu or Buddhist or Jew is mostly respected; not to do so would be intolerant.

But this double standard says something more about modern people than just their religious difficulties. It says something about our concept of the individual; about our individual self-images.

Some critics of contemporary society have traced Western culture’s concept of what it means to be an individual from its earliest conception through its loftiest definitions, along with all attendant ideas like freedom and responsibility. This development in thought has led today to philosophies like Engelhardt’s, that personhood is whatever we define it as, and the popular lay person’s idea of personhood.

In a recent a conversation with a friend of mine, a highly intelligent and committed atheist, he mentioned something he’d been noticing about this. He said, “There are two incredibly common phrases that come up in pop culture and out of the mouths of most people. They are, "just be yourself" and "I have to find myself" - which are two completely antithetical ideas. The first suggests that the key to the "self" lies within; the other suggests that the "self" is to be found exterior to us and we have to discover it through external investigations. That clearly expresses the complete and utter confusion of modern thinking pertaining to one's self.”

That got me thinking. I realized, both these phrases indicate that we have lost something: identity; certainty. Why? You could say our sense of identity went when we gave up on the idea of an ultimate purpose, like God, or that human beings have souls. As my friend and I continued talking, we found a third possible reason.

While the standing idea is that we are a nation of consumers, what’s really going on, behind the product advertising and commercial ads mentality, is that the consumers are actually the consumed. “We, the people” in our role as “We, the consumers,” have become the ultimate product.

This very consumerism is Engelhardt’s justification for the arbitrary lines he’s drawn through humanity and human dignity. As we’ve seen through the applied consequences of his so-called ethics, it’s inadequate as a humane system for real people.

So what’s the alternative to this Engelhardt consumerism, to the helplessness of Hume, the pessimism of Kant, the cold practicality of Utilitarianism? Christian ethics. You may not accept the theological justification, but the whole point of these ethics is the respect of human dignity. Which is what everyone’s after, one way or another. Why else is there a Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the U.S. Constitution, or even the very idea of a people legally sovereign over themselves, legitimizing a government whose only purpose is that peoples’ welfare? So you don’t want to believe in a God, but you want to live in a world where people are respected, where rights aren’t taken away because a new philosopher has the ear of the law, whispering sweet nothings about “practical” cheap solutions high in the only cost that matters: our humanity. Whether you can accept the idea of divine inspiration and endorsement for the worth and potentiality of human beings or not, the fact is Christianity is the last coherent system of thought and ethics that recognizes that inherent dignity and makes any provision for it at all. Are the plastic ethics of our secular prejudice so inviolable we are no longer capable of applying those beloved methods of reasonable thought to the problem at hand?

I mentioned at the start that we are a ‘post-everything’ society. What does that mean for where we hope to go? If there’s nothing we haven’t already been through, the future is a void. But there is another vision: the idea of our world brought together by a common notion of what it means to be just. This is an extremely relevant observation for anyone considering the real-life development of societal ethics. We’ve been through eras defined by technology, information, disaster, violence—as rising and falling civilizations sought to define the best way to exist, internally, and internationally. What haven’t we tried? The one thing we are not—the one thing we can never become if we value our survival—is a post-justice society.

It’s your world for the making. But to make it right, you must have all the facts. That’s why I challenge you to re-evaluate your blanket judgment that all of Christianity is worthless and out of touch; to re-examine your attitudes toward this last basis for ensuring human worth in society. The consequences for each of the ethical systems we have examined here today demand your verdict. Are you willing to settle for a government that derives its legitimacy from a people it brashly manipulates to its own will? Are you willing to settle for a philosophical system that justifies only its own existence? Are you willing to settle for a society that gives only lip service to human dignity?

Or do you, as a human being, require something… more?

When all is said and done; when we, our children, and our children’s children are living out the choices we are making here, today, I hope you will still be so confident you made the right one.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Interesting ideas.

Question:

you said: "My second point is dedicated to addressing this question, and may be summarized this way: Human dignity matters, and nothing respects it like Christianity."

Are you sure about that? I think that Buddhism does a better job than Christianity...

Also, suggestion: This blog is really long. I read about halfway, until you moved into a discussion on euthanasia, and browsed the rest. You cover a lot of different things, maybe you should break this up into a series of blogs.

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

A "better" job? That's an interesting claim. Why do you say that?

It's true many non-Christian religions talk about human dignity or something like it. However, most of these focus on the *individual's* enlightenment/salvation/whatever term, or well being, as opposed to working out social justice theories that apply to a society. The latter was my focus in this essay.

One of the interesting things about the Catholic conception of social justice is dogma itself makes no claim to particular ideologies. It says instead to individuals, here are these standards (basically, treat people as people, ends in themselves and not means) which make for a just and Godly social order; now pick/make a system that holds to them.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

I am talking about the actual, tangible measurements for how well a religion lives up to its stated moral codes.

Sorry, but no religion has more blood on its hands than Christianity (Catholics more than Protestants, but still) not even the militant branch of Islam we see at work today.

As for the "social justice theories" I think that modern day Judaism is champion in that realm.

And as for Buddhism, well it has taught "nonviolence" from the very beginning of its inception and has ever wavered from that basic moral code which accounts for the dignity of all persons. That is because of the fundamental belief that we are all connected.

Some would have us all think otherwise though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onB7pIT4mKo&feature=related

Claims that the Dalai Lama was endorsing violence are probably the most blasphemous that i can think of. The "ethnic Tibetans" shown smashing people's faces were not robed monks, probably riff raff, trying to reconcile their Tibetan heritage with living in main stream China. As the female reporter states, these pictures and videos are in the hands of the Chinese government.

It is my opinion, based on what i know of China and Tibet's history, that the Chinese government wants to make Tibetan Buddhism responsible for this kind of violence, to rouse support from the common people. I would say we should trust the Tibetan monks and the Dalai Lama over the Chinese government.

Buddhism is also very different from Christianity/ Catholicism in that it respects human dignity by not insisting on rejecting human intelligence and discovery by rejecting science. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhmaK4Q19RY

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

By that definition, I grant you Christians (or people calling themselves Christians) haven't always lived up to what the faith actually teaches. Of course, few followers in any religion usually do. But the standard is there.

I don't know anything about Judaism's social justice theories, but my point was Catholicism doesn't have 'a theory,' only a standard.

When you suggest Christianity "rejects science," however, you're wrong. There are people who call themselves Christians who do so, sure; but rejection of science is hardly a Christian belief. Some of the greatest scientists in history have been Christians, and Catholic at that. The Catholic Church teaches that faith is reasonable, just like science, and both are True; therefore they can never actually be in conflict. If they appear to be so, there is some misunderstanding.

Take for example the whole Genesis/evolution debate. Those who take Genesis as a physical literal description would do well to review the four sesnes of scripture (allegorical, anagogical, literal, and moral,) as well as what "literal" means: what the author meant.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

If the followers of a religion REGULARLY fail to live up to the "standards" that their religion TEACHES, then I would suggest that their religion is a remarkably INEFFECTIVE TOOL than needs to be revised in order to do its "job" more effectively.

Of course, when one looks at the core religious text of a religion, and finds within its pages literally dozens if not hundreds of specific instructions for its followers to KILL people, one has to wonder if the denials that all those those bloody-handed followers are actually acting in accordance with the theology of the religion are truly justifiable.

For example, if the holy text of a religion presents a story in which an agent of that religion's "god" goes around and murders the infant children of an entire nation, just because the leader of that nation refuses to do what "he" says, is it really so hard to see the leap of "reasoning" that leads that religion's followers to act out violently in support of their beliefs?

TTFN,
Blackout
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Marriage in the Bible
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

Have you ever read Pope Benedict XVI's address "Reason, Faith, and the Univeristy"? More commonly known as the Regensberg Address, it's the one he got into so much trouble for because he "bashed" Muslims. (Well, no, he didn't. I'm not exactly an avid fan of Benedict, but that's not what he said.) He covers this very bit about violence, specifically the call to holy war. He quotes a Byzantine emperor: "God is not pleased by blood--and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body...To convince a reasonable soul one does not need...any..means of threatening a person with death." Here's a handy link to the text.

Secondly, which specific commandments to kill would you be referring to?

Thirdly, people regularly fail to live up to standards all the time, of Christianity, of religions, of philosophies and work ethics and parental standards and diets. Just because a standard is difficult doesn't mean it needs to be revised. "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." - G.K. Chesterton.

Fourthly: God being violent in the Bible. I've never asked that question before, so I've never heard the answer. I'lll get back to you. There's only so many things I can research at a time.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Here's a partial list of some of the bloodier examples of "the LORD" commanding his followers to commit bloody violence...

"Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." (Exodus 34:11-14)

"And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword. For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you." (Leviticus 26:7-9)

"So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. " (Joshua 6:20-21)

"And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 8:24)

"And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho." (Joshua 10:28)

"Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho." (Joshua 10:29-30)

"And Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, unto Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it: 10:32 And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah." (Joshua 10:31-32)

"Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua smote him and his people, until he had left him none remaining." (Joshua 10:33)

"And from Lachish Joshua passed unto Eglon, and all Israel with him; and they encamped against it, and fought against it: And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish." (Joshua 10:34-35)

"And Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, unto Hebron; and they fought against it: And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein." (Joshua 10:36-37)

"And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir; and fought against it: And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king." (Joshua 10:38-39)

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon." (Joshua 10:40-41)

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (1 Samuel 15:3)

I know that modern christians like to hide behind the relatively peaceful message of the new testament, but let's not forget that there are two other aspects of the christian trinity, and at least one of them is painted by the scriptures as an extremely bloodthirsty being. But, you were probably talking about commandments that were a little less genocidal. I can help you with that, too.

"Any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest who officiates there in the ministry of the LORD, your God, or to the judge, shall die. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 17:12)

"You shall not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:17)

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)

"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:15)

"Anyone who curses his father or mother shall be put to death; since he has cursed his father or mother, he has forfeited his life." (Leviticus 20:9)

"If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10)

"A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death." (Leviticus 21:9)

"They entered into a covenant to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 )

"If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the LORD." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through." (Zechariah 13:3)

Oh, and here's one of my favorites...

"If, in any of the cities which the LORD, your God, gives you to dwell in, you hear it said that certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and have led astray the inhabitants of their city to serve other gods whom you have not known, you must inquire carefully into the matter and investigate it thoroughly. If you find that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in your midst, you shall put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, dooming the city and all life that is in it, even its cattle, to the sword. Having heaped up all its spoils in the middle of its square, you shall burn the city with all its spoils as a whole burnt offering to the LORD, your God. Let it be a heap of ruins forever, never to be rebuilt. You shall not retain anything that is doomed, that the blazing wrath of the LORD may die down and he may show you mercy and in his mercy for you may multiply you as he promised your fathers on oath; because you have heeded the voice of the LORD, your God, keeping all his commandments which I enjoin on you today, doing what is right in his sight." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

But let's move on, because there are more...

"But if this charge is true, and evidence of the girl's virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father's house and there her townsmen shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the LORD, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery." (Deuteronomy 13:7-11)

"If there is found among you, in any one of the communities which the LORD, your God, gives you, a man or a woman who does evil in the sight of the LORD, your God, and transgresses his covenant, by serving other gods, or by worshiping the sun or the moon or any of the host of the sky, against my command; and if, on being informed of it, you find by careful investigation that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in Israel: you shall bring the man (or woman) who has done the evil deed out to your city gates and stone him to death." (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

"The LORD then said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and when all who heard him have laid their hands on his head, let the whole community stone him. Tell the Israelites: Anyone who curses his God shall bear the penalty of his sin; whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death. The whole community shall stone him; alien and native alike must be put to death for blaspheming the LORD'S name." (Leviticus 24:13-16)

"Every command that I enjoin on you, you shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it nor subtracting from it. "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer who promises you a sign or wonder, urging you to follow other gods, whom you have not known, and to serve them: even though the sign or wonder he has foretold you comes to pass, pay no attention to the words of that prophet or that dreamer; for the LORD, your God, is testing you to learn whether you really love him with all your heart and with all your soul. The LORD, your God, shall you follow, and him shall you fear; his commandment shall you observe, and his voice shall you heed, serving him and holding fast to him alone." (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)

"The LORD said to Moses, "You must also tell the Israelites: Take care to keep my sabbaths, for that is to be the token between you and me throughout the generations, to show that it is I, the LORD, who make you holy. Therefore, you must keep the sabbath as something sacred. Whoever desecrates it shall be put to death. If anyone does work on that day, he must be rooted out of his people. Six days there are for doing work, but the seventh day is the sabbath of complete rest, sacred to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the sabbath day shall be put to death." (Exodus 31:12-15)

"To the others I heard him say: Pass through the city after him and strike! Do not look on them with pity nor show any mercy! Old men, youths and maidens, women and children--wipe them out! But do not touch any marked with the X; begin at my sanctuary. So they began with the men (the elders) who were in front of the temple. Defile the temple, he said to them, and fill the courts with the slain; then go out and strike in the city." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

"You are my hammer, my weapon for war; With you I shatter nations, with you I destroy kingdoms. With you I shatter horse and rider, with you I shatter chariot and driver. With you I shatter man and wife, with you I shatter old and young, with you I shatter the youth and maiden. With you I shatter the shepherd and his flock, with you I shatter the farmer and his team, with you I shatter satraps and prefects. Thus will I repay Babylon, and all who live in Chaldea All the evil they did to Zion, as you shall see with your own eyes, says the LORD. Beware! I am against you, destroying mountain, destroyer of the entire earth, says the LORD; I will stretch forth my hand against you, roll you down over the cliffs, and make you a burnt mountain: They will not take from you a cornerstone, or a foundation stone; Ruins forever shall you be, says the LORD." (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

"For this I will make the heavens tremble and the earth shall be shaken from its place, At the wrath of the LORD of hosts on the day of his burning anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or a flock that no one gathers, Every man shall turn to his kindred and flee to his own land. Everyone who is caught shall be run through; to a man, they shall fall by the sword. Their infants shall be dashed to pieces in their sight; their houses shall be plundered and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:13-16)

And, just to prove that we aren't just talking about the OLD testament...

"Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts 15 for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1:24-32)

Heck, even Jesus gets into the act and uses violence to impose his religious beliefs on others...

"And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; and said unto them that sold doves, "Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise." (John 2:13-16)

And finally, of course, is this little gem...

"At midnight the LORD slew every first-born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh on the throne to the first-born of the prisoner in the dungeon, as well as all the first-born of the animals. Pharaoh arose in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians; and there was loud wailing throughout Egypt, for there was not a house without its dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)

I could go on (and on, and on, and on, and on), but I think I've made my point. Anyone who suggests that the "god" depicted in the bible is not a bloodthirsty character, has never really read the bible, or at least never studied it beyond the pablum fed whitewashed version that is taught to children in Sunday schools.

TTFN,
Blackout
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Marriage in the Bible
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

If you'd stop insulting me, I might take you a little more seriously. Yes, I've read the Bible. I've simply never focused on this particular aspect of it. Your overwhelming urge to paint all Christians as mindless drones seems to have led you to assume that simply because I am new to this area of theology that I am an idiot. And you know what they say about assumptions.

Have you ever looked into the Church's explanations for why the Bible says what it does? For anything, not just violence. From what you've said, while you may have "read" the Bible, you've done so only with the intention of refuting it, and never taking it on its own cultural and historical terms. I don't care what you're reading, that is the necessary first step in understanding any documents.

Also, the passage where Jesus drives the money-changers out of the temple was an example of just, righteous anger, and he didn't kill anyone. He was "imposing" the traditional laws of the Jews, which the money changers were blatantly ignoring by doing their business in the holy place instead of outside it.

Where in that passage from Romans does God command them to kill each other? The first line says, "Fine, if you don't want to be a just people, have at it; do as you will." And so they went on being murderers and thieves, etc.

I haven't heard the official word on Exodus yet, but I would call it an example of divine justice. It's also blatantly not a commandment to kill, either. God just did it.

The majority of your example are examples of death used as punishment for breaking the law.

You said:

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literally dozens if not hundreds of specific instructions for its followers to KILL people, one has to wonder if the denials that all those those bloody-handed followers are actually acting in accordance with the theology of the religion are truly justifiable.

Which, of those many quotations, are actually specifically applicable today? Do you really think Christians are going to suddenly all buy guns and start shooting nonbelievers in droves? Some of the "fundamentalists" may think that's the way to go, who knows, but it's not anything the Catholic Church would condone.

The argument is always, but look at the Crusades! Look at the warrior popes! Look at blah blah blah. And the answer is always the same, for Christianity as everything else: religion never "made" people do bad things. People do bad things because they're people, and usually bloody stupid. Religion, politics--they're all after-the-fact justifications for people doing whatever they feel like.

The problem isn't that the "old testament god" is war-like, it's whether or not the religion is ABOUT being violent. If you want to argue the heart of Christianity promotes violence and unrest, you're going to have to argue that it does so simply because of its nature as a religion, since while Christian theology is difficult, hard-edged, and not for the faint of heart, is nothing if not "peaceful."

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

As I pointed out earlier, YOU are the one who set the stage for a combative debate when you accused your opponents of not being informed. For you to attempt to hide behind the excuse of "I'm new at this" now that the tables have been turned on you is disingenuous, and not very compelling.

You are also incorrect that I have read the bible only for the purpose of refuting it. I was RAISED in the church, and educated in the bible and the theology surrounding it from the aspect of a believer. It was only later in life, when I began to approach the material from a more scholarly position that I really began to question what I was reading, and finding answers that disturbed me.

So yes, I HAVE heard the church's explanations...and they invariably rely on some sort of excuse about how we "don't understand 'god's' purpose" or some other such crap. I also think you are avoiding the issue. If you believe that the bible is "divinely inspiried," and unless you believe that the authors of the bible are lying when they attribute various commandments to "the LORD," then the inescabably concluse is that "god" commands his followers to commit violence against and kill other people for all manner of things.

It really doesn't matter about the cultural context of the people involved in these stories. If one believes that this 'god' fellow is omni-everthing, it seems reasonable that "he" would at least know that genocide is bad and that "he" would command his followers to solve their problems in some other way.

Also, not all of the quotes I offered above were specific commandments (something I thought I had made clear), and my list also included general pronouncements of bloodthirstiness that provide the biblical basis on which many of the violent events of christian history are based. If one believes in the "divine" nature of the bible, it isn't hard to see how one could use stories and commandments of this sort to justify violence, which is of course something that the catholic church especially has a long and rich history of doing (the Crusades, the Heresies, witch-burning, forced conversions, the list goes on, and on...).

So if you ask which of those commandments apply today, I must respond by asking you "is the 'god' of the old testament the same 'god' that you worship today?" I mean, do you really think that there is a spiritual statutes of limitation on genocide? If the "god" you worship is the same "god" that commanded his followers to "utterly destroy" the people of Makkedah (and Ai, And Libnah, and Lachish, and Gezer, and Elgon, and Hebron, and Debir...oh, and the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites) then it seems, well...REDICULOUS to suggest that this character is not a "bloodthirsty" figure.

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I haven't heard the official word on Exodus yet, but I would call it an example of divine justice. It's also blatantly not a commandment to kill, either. God just did it.

Again, you miss the point. Let me ask you this...

Do you or do you not think that it is a moral act to target and kill the infant children of your enemies in order to convince the parents of those children to comply with your wishes?

Hint: If your answer is "no," then your "god" is not a moral being. If your answer is "yes," then you have undone any hope of presenting the theology of your religion as anything BUT a bloodthirsty, dangerous group of terrorists. Take your pick.

As for this comment...

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The argument is always, but look at the Crusades! Look at the warrior popes! Look at blah blah blah. And the answer is always the same, for Christianity as everything else: religion never "made" people do bad things. People do bad things because they're people, and usually bloody stupid. Religion, politics--they're all after-the-fact justifications for people doing whatever they feel like.

That's just horseshit. This argument might hold some water IF it were not for the FACT that the bible is FILLED with examples of "god" commanding "his" followers to act in exactly the same manner as those whose actions you seek to distance yourself from. If the bible ONLY said "love your enemies," then you might have a case. But it doesn't, and your argument is left sounding muffled by the sand around your head. And finally, modern christianity is (somewhat) more peaceful than earlier versions, not because the religion itself is less violent, but because modern secular governments no longer allow the church to stomp around the known world with its own armies, forcing conversion or death on everyone they meet.

TTFN,
Blackout
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Marriage in the Bible
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I won't argue with someone who refuses to do so reasonably. So just a few last thoughts.

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YOU are the one who set the stage for a combative debate when you accused your opponents of not being informed.

Let me reiterate: The people I was talking about ARE! I wasn't talking about you. I didn't know YOU existed. I didn't even expect any responses to the post! Yes, you have reasons. Bravo! So do I. So we think the other one's reasons are shite and we're not changing! End of dicussion, no problem, no personal bashing needed.

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They invariably rely on some sort of excuse about how we "don't understand 'god's' purpose" or some other such crap.

I was raised in the Church too, and while my Sunday School classes were largely taught by people who needed lessons in theology themselves, that's one I never heard.

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modern secular governments no longer allow...

Yes, John Paul II was just dying to issue a call to crusade the minute he thought the secular governments weren't looking.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

..."Never pick a fight you can't finish."

Quote:

I won't argue with someone who refuses to do so reasonably.

The fact that you can't rebutt an argument doesn't make that argument unreasonable.

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Yes, you have reasons. Bravo! So do I. So we think the other one's reasons are shite and we're not changing! End of dicussion, no problem, no personal bashing needed.

The difference, of course, is that I can back up MY reasons with supporting evidence that is actually found in "the bible." My reasons do not require an apology, because their source is the plain text of the biblical accounts.

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Yes, John Paul II was just dying to issue a call to crusade the minute he thought the secular governments weren't looking.

That's not surprising, since the power of the catholic church to wage war has been essentially eliminated for more than two hundred years before John Paul II became pope. However, pope Ubran II certainly had no difficulty in using his position as the head of the church to calling a crusade because (in his own words), "Christ commands it."

I also can't help but notice that you have avoided answering the primary challenge of my last counter-point. Perhaps you just missed it, so I will ask you again...

Do you or do you not think that it is a moral act to target and kill the infant children of your enemies in order to convince the parents of those children to comply with your wishes?

TTFN,
Blackout
---
Marriage in the Bible
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

tvor said:

"Let me reiterate: The people I was talking about ARE! I wasn't talking about you. I didn't know YOU existed. I didn't even expect any responses to the post! Yes, you have reasons. Bravo! So do I. So we think the other one's reasons are shite and we're not changing! End of dicussion, no problem, no personal bashing needed."

to be clear, the people you were talking about ARE! what exactly? when? also, if you intend to stick around here, get used to it...the responses of people with differing points of view i mean. I understand your frustration, i do. however, just because you posted this blog here, that does not mean that you get to decide who reads it or how they read it. it also doesn't give you authority over how people react to it. that is what is great about this site, it forces us to expand our thinking beyond our original, personal assumptions.

i say this to you out of interest in your thoughts in general, not just this particular blog. i am certain that the information you have been *freely* given here by darwin's beagle, blackout and others who have participated in this thread is *far more* extensive and valuable than anything you ever got in a classroom, which has also probably cost quite a bit in monetary terms. that is why this site exists, to be a playground, a testing site, for what we absorb in the classroom. this is the *real* test...to see how well you can navigate the social constructs of our world *on your own,* without the approval of a professor who wants to see you absorb *his/ her own* perspectives.

it is not an easy thing to do, and it takes courage and perseverance to stick it out and find out what you can get out of it beyond getting your feelings hurt. that will happen, again and again, especially if you choose topics such as these. not all who blog here choose these kinds of discussions, but the veterans know that when they do tread on these waters, things are likely to get stormy. just expect it. you don't have to respond, you don't have to reconcile skepticism, such as blackout's, to absolutely everything. you can let it go, and let it stand. not everyone here are atheists, and most who are not know what to expect if they dare go down this road....

point is to find out what *value* you can get out of this, and whether or not it is worth the risk you take by blogging/ participating here. hopefully you can get over your personal feelings of having been "attacked," and realize it is not you, but your words that have been "attacked," or more accurately "questioned." if you feel that your ideas have value beyond what blackout et al are capable of seeing, then you also have reason to share despite the challenge. its all up to you.

i hope you don't get frustrated and leave this site, i really don't. that is why i bother to post this comment. another hint, while blackout's tactics might feel hostile, and while he is consistently "attacking" of any assertions of anything beyond the obvious and concrete aspects of being, he is *not* the "enemy," and you will find yourself enriched by his challenges if you choose to. that doesn't mean you have to agree with him to learn from him. he is a veteran debater, and his ethics are very consistent, and actually very effective, in human terms, which is where i think it matters most.

p.s. don't think you are alone in this project: http://progressiveu.org/blog/52779-throwback-god-man-or-women#comment-29...

also, don't think the atheists are spared by such meticulous dissection:
http://progressiveu.org/blog/49010-atheism-pure-weakness

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

caliban's picture

Have you ever read the book of Job? Basically, God murders an entire family on a bet with the devil that his follower will still love him, no matter how bad he screws with job. Another great example of the "loving" God
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Put your best foot forward, just watch what you step in..."

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association
Quote:

...Christian Apologetics. It's addressed to sketpics and atheists (ie, most of my friends,) asking them to re-evaluate the knee-jerk assumption that Christianity is irrational and totally useless.

I would propose that your evaluation of the reaction of skeptics and atheists to the theological assertions of the christian religion are hardly "knee-jerk" assumptions. In my experience, most atheists tend to be far better educated about the contents of those assertions than the apologists who defend them. Many of us (myself included) actually come from backgrounds that have included an intensive study of the relevant religious materials, and are not in any way uniformed about the historical and philosophical basis behind these assertions. The basis for all apologia is an attempt to re-cast an argument to make it appear more rational. Sometimes this is merely a matter of presenting the material more clearly. However in many cases the apologist attempts to reinterpret the argument in order to de-emphasize aspects of that argument which do not stand up well to close scrutiny.

In order to make the case that your religious beliefs are rational, you have to be prepared to abide by the same standards of reason and evidence that would be applied to any other subject. Apologists rarely do this. For example...

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One of the major purposes of a Christian apologist is to convert people to the faith. They, too, ask questions of evaluation, such as, "Where is God in your life?" But that is also not the question I want to ask.

It is good that you do not ask this question, since doing so is logially flawed. The premise of the question "Where is 'god' in your life?" is based on a logical fallacy known as begging the question. If you cannot provide actual, objective evidence that suggests the existence of the being you name as "god," then any questions which rely on the assumption that "'god' exists" is logically flawed, and rationally baseless. In fact, any apologetic argument which fails to address this flaw in the CORE PREMISE of all christian theology is automatically irrational. One cannot reach a sound conclusion without a valid permise, and one cannot have a valid premise without at least SOME kind of evidenciary support that indicates the truth-value of that premise.

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This, then, is my question to you: What are you willing to settle for?

That's an easy one. I am willing to settle for the TRUTH. The unadulterated, objective and proveable TRUTH. Anything else you might have to offer is speculative. Such concepts might be interesting to discuss, but they cannot be rationally asserted to be TRUE.

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My first point may be summarized this way: If you’re going to reject Christianity, you ought to reject the real Christianity.

As noted above, the CORE PREMISE of christianity is the assertion the actual existence of an intelligent, supernatural being referred to as "god." Until you can demonstrate the existence of this being in an objective fashion, all other arguments regarding your religious beliefs are premature.

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Nonetheless, that is how Christianity has achieved its common public face today—a false front that is largely vindictive stereotype, created by ignorance and kept in place by those who should know better with a deep-seated prejudice against all things “supernatural.”

In order to make a rational claim that people are "prejudiced" against "all things 'suprenatural"," you must first provide actual, objective evidence that "supernatural" beings and forces actually exist. Can you do this?

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This is usually expressed by the idea that it [christianity] is “pre-” or “un-scientific.”

It is.

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This usually includes the assumption that the Bible is inaccurate or made-up.

It is.

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For something to be scientific, it must be empirical; that is, concrete and quantifiable. If you can’t experiment on it, it’s not scientific.

This is exactly correct. The scientific method by defintion relies on objective observations of natural phenomena that are refined through empirical experimentation. Christiantiy does not make use of this method on any meaningful level, and this is in fact un-scientific.

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However, facts do not exist in isolation.

Sure they do. In fact, that's kind of the whole point behind the word, "objective." For example, you might say that you do not "believe" in Gravity. But I can pick up a rock and let it go, and it will fall to the Earth despite your denials.

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Scientific reason gives us many things; it teaches us what and how. But it only demonstrates; it doesn’t explain. It can’t answer—can’t even ask—the question, “Why?”

Horsepuckey. Science might not provide you with the answer that you want, but it certainly can ask those questions, and more often than your apologetic answer would suggest is actually quite effective at answering that very question.

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This conclusion also assumes there’s only one kind of certainty: the kind you can see.

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Humans are fully capable of making inferences and forming logical connections between all kinds of non-empirical data.

The capacity of our minds to gather and categorize data is not an poorly understood as your dismissal would suggest. Many of the brain's processes are sub-conscious, but that doesn't make them any less dependant on the empirical data passed to it though our sensory organs.

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The real, substantial difference between Christian theology and secular philosophy is that the philosopher attempts to prove his premise before drawing a conclusion. Christians start with an un-argued premise—the Bible was divinely inspired—and work from there.

And THAT'S why christian theology is irrational.

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This goes for the historicity of the Bible, as well...Believing the Bible to be inspired by God is a decision made in faith. Understanding the Bible to be a historically reliable text is a matter of knowing the history of the Jewish culture in which the Old and New Testaments were written, and the archaeological evidence corroborating them. In his compilation book of evidence for the historicity of the Bible, A Ready Defense, Josh McDowell argues the same tests used to determine the accuracy and reliability of other ancient documents, from the Iliad to Aristotle to Shakespeare, are the same tests that should be used when evaluating the Bible.

The problem with many apologists, is that they have only studied the relevant historical evidence in the unchallenged environments of their churches, and have never really studied those events in a scholarly fashion. Also, there is a tendency to believe their christian teachers without question, which unfortunately allows the frauds perpetrated by people like McDowell to flourish even when they come from creditless sources. Rather than delving into an indepth critique of the numerous factual errors and thematic inconsistencies of the modern bible, I will instead direct you to an excellent series of blogs written by another of our resident scholars, Dawin's Beagle...

Daniel is a Forgery - Introduction, Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 3, Chapter 4, Chapter 5, Chapter 6, Chapter 7, Chapter 8, Chapter 9, Chapters 10-12, Conclusion.

These blogs examine in depth the historical inaccuracies in one of the major books of the modern christian bible, and even deal specifically with McDowell's flawed scholarship.

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After all, there is no reason not to, except a pre-conceived prejudice against it.

You have this completely backwards. The term "pre-conceived prejudice" implies that one has formed an opinion before one has considered the evidence. This is in fact what the apologist has done. In a rational argument, EVERYTHING is assumed to be false until it is proved to be true.

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First, we have more extant copies of books of the Bible than any other historical manuscripts; second, judged by the literary standards and motivations of the Hebrew culture in which they were written, the books are themselves internally consistent; and third, everything from the geography of the ancient world to other ancient sources of literature confirm both the styles in which the books were written and the details of historical events recorded there.

When I hear people say things like this, I am immedialtely led to believe that the speaker has never indulged in any serious scholarly study of the collection of works known commonly today as "the bible." To begin with, I would argue that you are inflating the relevance (and number) of the surviving ancient fragments of these books for several reasons.

The first reason is that in reality, there are no extant books or even fragments of the biblical stories that can be reasonably assumed to be primary sources. The absolute oldest fragment that has been discovered is a postage-stamp sized copy of 4 incomplete verses from the book of Numbers, and it dates to only the 5th Century B.C.E. The oldest relatively complete texts from the old testament date to 1st-2nd Centuries B.C.E. (from the famous Dead Sea Scrolls). It is interesting to note that among the Scrolls were found a great many texts that are NOT consistent with modern christian and judaic canons. Some examples are the Book of Jubilees and Enoch. There were also Scrolls that are accepted as canonical by catholic and orthodox theology, but not by protestants (such as the Book of Tobit).*

The oldest relatively complete copies of the new testament date to the 4th Century C.E.--namely the Codex Sinaiticus. and the Codex Vaticanus (believed to be one of the 50 bibles comissioned by the Emporer Constantine following the Nicaean Council). This is significant because it was after the Council of Nicaea--which was in fact the Council at which the common cannon was officially established--Constantine ordered the books not chosen for the cannon to be burned. In fact, due to the active burning of "heretical" works, we have almost no credible records of what christianity actually looked like prior to the Council of Nicaea.

Even among christian scholars, Constantine is attributed with establishing a uniformity of doctrine from the then existing sects. He actively prosecuted and executed those who opposed his directed interpretation of the scriptures, and consigned both the men and their books to the fire to ensure that only his version of events would be passed on to history. This explains why the texts that DO remain are "well kept together with each other," since (obviously) the works which were found to be inconsistent with the newly established canon were systematically destroyed, thus creating an illusion of consistency among the works which were left.

*This of course leads to an interesting observation about the inconsistency of cannon among the modern christian sects. The typical protestant bible contains 66 books, while the catholic version has 73 and the Greek orthodox usually count 78. The Ethopian bible has the most, I think at 81. That's at least 15 whole books worth of contradition that can be found without even cracking a cover.

Going into a little more detail, the following books are common to the canons of most modern christian and jewish sects: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1-2 Samuel, 1-2 Kings, 1-2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, the minor prophets (Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi...which in the Hebrew Bible are contained in a single book). The roman catholic canon, however, contains a number of additional books, that the jewish and protestant sects reject, such as the books of Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Ben Sira, Baruch, and significant additional sections in the books of Jeremiah, Daniel and Esther. The eastern orthodox church also includes the books of 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, the Prayer of Manasseh and an additional Psalm. The Russian and Ethiopian orthodox branches include 2 Esdras in their common canon, and the Ethiopian orthodox adds another Psalm, the book of Jubilees and Enoch, and 1-3 Meqabyan. The Peshitta canon adds four more Psalms and the book of 2 Baruch, but rejects portions of John and all of 2 Peter, Jude, and the book of Revelation. The canonization of the new testament is a little more consistent, but it is interesting to note that the new testament wasn't actually dogmatically canonized until 16th-17th Centuries. The roman catholics issued their new testament canon in 1546 (The Council of Trent), and the Anglicans, Calvinists and Eastern Orthodoxies followed suit in 1563 (The Thrity-Nine Articles), 1647 (The Westminster Confession of Faith) and 1672 (The Synod of Jerusalem), respectively.

Based on the fact that the major christian sects of the world can't even agree on what books are actually a part of the bible, how do you propose to support a claim that "the bible" as we know it today is in any way well preserved, much less that they represent a clear and consistent account of the mythological events depicted therein.

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Those who wish to wholeheartedly throw out Christianity in its entirety have rarely considered what effect that would have on their society’s conception of right and wrong.

This is not a rational argument. In fact, this is another logical fallacy known as an "appeal to consequences." The truth-value of your CORE PREMISE is neither supported nor damaged by the consequences you presume would follow in society if in fact your assertions are false. This argument is both irrational and irrelevant.

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The same observation applies to the debate, several years old now, about whether it’s permissible to display the Ten Commandments in a government building. Aside from the Old Testament connotations, there’s nothing harmful in these simple statements; most of them declare what our own legislation enforces: ideas such as stealing, murder, and adultery are wrong.

The last time I checked, "thou shalt have no other god before me" is not an element of U.S. Law, and in fact our Constitution specifically forbids our government from making that kind of endorsement. In fact, the first five commandments are pretty much anti-thetical to any government which respects religious freedom, and the tenth is anti-thetical to capitalism. Six through nine are found (more or less) present within our laws, but then prohibitions against muder, adultery, theft and fraud are common place in almost all historical cultures, both christian and non-christian alike.

It might not seem harmful to a christian to be confronted with a commandment not to worships any 'god' other than the christian one, but to anyone else such a commandment creates an unlawful implication that those who do not conform to the christian religion will not receive the equal protection of the laws. That's a pretty big deal when you're the one of the receiving end of it, and its one that our Constitution expressly forbids, so one really shouldn't be suprised when such displays are not allowed.

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What it comes down to is how people are on the defensive against Christianity. They hate it; they fear it. Why? It rarely has anything to do with its ethics, although the word “morality” has become taboo.

Sure...I mean, it couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Heresies, the conquest and forced conversions of native peoples, the executions of scientists, the violent oppression of competing religious groups, or any of the countless other historical examples of christianity being used as an excuse to convert, conque or if all else fails kill anyone who disagrees with the pronouncements of the church. Personally, I find the ethical assertion that it is a moral act to murder the children of one's enemies in order to gain their compliance to be an insurmountable obstacle to any personal involvement on my part with the christian religion.

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Or do you, as a human being, require something… more?

I wold suggest that every living atheist is proof that human beings do not in fact "require something… more."

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When all is said and done; when we, our children, and our children’s children are living out the choices we are making here, today, I hope you will still be so confident you made the right one.

That is a hope that I share, though I doubt that we will agree on what the "right choice" really is.

TTFN,
Blackout
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Patriotic Atheism
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turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Fascinating, your presentation of the facts about the Bible. I am bookmarking this comment. Have a beautiful day :).

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

Thank you for your in-depth reply. I am aware the length is unmanageable for ProU, but it was written for a different format. I didn't think it expedient or truly necessary to divide it up.

As for "knee-jerk reactions," perhaps that was a careless phrase. Many of my friends, nominal Christians and atheists alike, know little about the faith; however I have a few close atheist friends who are very well-reasoned in their opinions for not being Christians. I've asked their opinions throughout the creation of this essay, and found the feedback to be mostly positive (a few votes aren't in yet.) I have total respect for atheists with such well-reasoned opinions; the point of this essay was to challenge the ones who may not have, and NOT about the existence or nonexistence of God, but about the philosophical merit within Christianity. This is often overlooked because people are focused on, as you say, the forgery of the Bible and the question of supernatural existence. I address then in my discussion in the display of the ten commandments. There are many reasonable arguments for not displaying them; I'm not convinced the one you give is free of the prejudice I was targeting which is *not* a good reason not displaying them.

I am still learning about all the historicity, the evidence and the lack of, in terms of Christianity and the Bible, and open to new information, but for you to assume I haven't studied at all or that I take what I am taught at face value without investigation is a bit insulting. I'm not an expert, but I have a basic, and growing, understanding of both sides of the question. My class in apologetics concerning the historicity was taught this way: the professor first presented, quite convincingly, the argument from the sketpic's perspective, and then asked us to construct the Catholic answers. Then we reversed roles. Highly conducive to learning. Catholics understand their faith to be a reasonable one; apologists (the good ones; I admit, there are some who are an embarrassment to the name) are interested in presenting the truth, not weighting the argument to make it "seem" true. Why would we hide? We think we're right. (You have no idea how ironic it is for me to call myself a Christian apologist. The funny thing is, at my Catholic college I'm the first to question the Church and doubt her evidence. Apparently this makes me first in line to defend her, as well.)

The point being, I don't assume all atheists haven't thought it through; but even the ones who have sometimes overlook the hidden prejudices that cloud an issue. This is true of any culturally contingent debate... ie, all of them. In the same vein, please don't assume I haven't thought it through. There will always be something I haven't thought of, but that is the inevitable result of a non-genius attempting the learning process. :)

The majority of your objections to the first half of my essay consist in the logical fallacy of assuming God to exist. But this is not the point of the presentation; whether God exists or not in reality has absolutely no bearing for a secular society whether a utilitarian-centered or human dignity-centered system of ethics is more True or beneficial. You misinterpreted my question about "settling" and "requiring more"--I was asking in terms of consequences and effects in society based on the ethical propositions assumed, not theological commitments. I am not trying to prove God's existence in this essay: it is unnecessary in terms of the evaluation overview of *philosophical* ethics attempted in brief here. I stated this very clearly in several places. As for the historicity of the bible, there are several things to be considered. First, based on your use of the phrase "creditless sources" I would ask if you'd actually really looked in to McDowell's arguments. (if you have, I commend you, "A Ready Defense" is a headache to get through.) He has good points concerning what constitutes authenticity and reliability. The tests he uses on the books of the Bible are the same ones applied to other ancient documents. If you deny those, then all of ancient literature is thrown into doubt. There's also the matter of the JEPD theory, but as that is held by both believers and nonbelievers it's not a matter I was interested in here. I'm not familiar--yet--with controversy surrounding the book of Daniel, as my studies have focused so far on the New Testament and
the Torah, particularly Genesis. 

Thank you for taking the time to read my essay, but it seems in your refusal to move on from the question of the existence of God you're missing the point. There are many ways to approach the question of Christianity's place in society, and one of those other ways--questions about the philosophical, rationally provable ethics of the religion--is the tact chosen here. I included the historicity of the Bible as a side note, downplaying it in its relation to the overall goal here, but if I have time I would like to reply in-depth to your objections with further research and another blog post. :) 

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...and not to preachers or lawyers.

Quote:

[T]he point of this essay was to challenge the ones who may not have, and NOT about the existence or nonexistence of God, but about the philosophical merit within Christianity. This is often overlooked because people are focused on, as you say, the forgery of the Bible and the question of supernatural existence.

You implied in your blog that your purpose was to paint a rational picture of christian thelogy. In order to do that, you must build a rational case for your argument, and to do that you need to establish the truth of the premise on which all of your arguments rest. Your approach is common in apologia, precisely for the reason that it glosses over the rational flaws that are found in that premise. The tactic attempts to lure the opponent into accepting the premise of the subsequent arguments without question, thus validating the circular reasoning which points back to that premise as an authoritative source.

Quote:

I am still learning about all the historicity, the evidence and the lack of, in terms of Christianity and the Bible, and open to new information, but for you to assume I haven't studied at all or that I take what I am taught at face value without investigation is a bit insulting.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. In your blog you stated that many of the objections to christianity come from "unfamiliarity with archaeological history and evidence...Understanding the Bible to be a historically reliable text is a matter of knowing the history of the Jewish culture in which the Old and New Testaments were written, and the archaeological evidence corroborating them." This accusation is a dangerous one, unless you are able to back it up with a demonstration that you are in fact better informed that the people you are citicizing.

Quote:

My class in apologetics concerning the historicity was taught this way: the professor first presented, quite convincingly, the argument from the sketpic's perspective, and then asked us to construct the Catholic answers. Then we reversed roles. Highly conducive to learning.

I would suggest that attendind a catholic institution of learning, and taking a class devoted to christian apologetics in which catholics are instructed to pretend to be non-catholics by a catholic teacher in order to present arguments that can then be countered by other cathoics is not a good formula for "higher learning." Why? Because every single person in this situation has is pre-disposed towards a single conclusion. You consternation at my responses would seem to support my evalusation of your arguments, thus far.

Quote:

Why would we hide?

There are certainly a large number of letigimate scholars who are also christian, and they have produced a significant body of scholarly research which is valuable in discussions of this type. There is a difference, however, in objective scholarship and apologetics. By your own admission, "One of the major purposes of a Christian apologist is to convert people to the faith." This statement of purpose establishes a pre-stated bias for the apologist. An objective scholar is motivated by a desire to uncover the factual reality behind the question at hand. Someone who is motivated by a desire to gain religious converts can be rationally expected to give more weight to evidence which futhers that goal in favor of more objective considerations which do not.

Quote:

The point being, I don't assume all atheists haven't thought it through; but even the ones who have sometimes overlook the hidden prejudices that cloud an issue.

Asking for objective evidence that supports your argument is not a "hidden prejudice." Its a clearly stated demand that conforms with all other areas of scholarship. If you want to be treated as a rational proponent of your relgiion, then you have to abide by the normal standards of rational argumentation which is expected of credible scholars and commentators.

Quote:

The majority of your objections to the first half of my essay consist in the logical fallacy of assuming God to exist. But this is not the point of the presentation; whether God exists or not in reality has absolutely no bearing for a secular society whether a utilitarian-centered or human dignity-centered system of ethics is more True or beneficial.

Ah, but it IS relevant. In order to make the argument that the christian philosophy is NOT utilitarian, you must be able to prove that the source of that philosophy lies with an objective source that exists outside the subjective decision-making of human philosophers. If one does not accept that the christian philosophy comes "from 'god'," then there is very little (if anything) that technically differentiates christian theology from other schools of philosophical thought.

Quote:

You misinterpreted my question about "settling" and "requiring more"--I was asking in terms of consequences and effects in society based on the ethical propositions assumed, not theological commitments.

Acutally, I understood what you meant, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to turn your comment back on you in what (I hope) was a clever and insightful jibe. (:P)

Quote:

As for the historicity of the bible, there are several things to be considered. First, based on your use of the phrase "creditless sources" I would ask if you'd actually really looked in to McDowell's arguments.

I am familiar with McDowell's "work." The reason that I consider McDowell's argument to be creditless is many-fold. For one, McDowell is not a credentialed historian. His highest degrees are a Master of Divinity from the Talbot School of Theology and an honorary doctorate in Law from Trinity Law School (a private, conservative evangelical institution that has a significantly deficient pass-rate at the Bar). His background shows through planly in his books. One of the reasons that McDowell is such an effective author for christian apologists is that the style of books are based on an application of the legal rules of evidence. This is not the same standard of evidence which is used by scholarly historians. In short, McDowell's work is an example of "style over substance."

Quote:

He has good points concerning what constitutes authenticity and reliability. The tests he uses on the books of the Bible are the same ones applied to other ancient documents. If you deny those, then all of ancient literature is thrown into doubt.

This simply isn't true. McDowell's treatment of the the historical evidence is sloppy at best, and deceptive at worst. He hangs a significant portion of his books on a series of athoritative appeals. The problem is that his sources for these appeals come from a very small pool of fringe scholars, almost all of whom belong to an evagelical organization known as the InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. These are not main-stream historians, and their arguments come almost exclusively from non-peer reviewed papers and books. We can see a good example of why this is a flawed approach by examining the way that McDowell treats the following commonly quoted (by apologists) passage from Josephus in his book Evidence That Demands a Verdict...

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him many Jews and Gentiles. This was the Christ. And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of christians, so called from him, subsists to this time."

Now, to McDowell's credit, he does state that this passage is "hotly contested," but that is really an understatement. In fact, the consensus among main-stream historians has held since the early 1800's that this passage is fraudulent, and that the references to Jesus in the passage were added by christian monks who were copying from the original text in order to make the case for a historical Jesus more convincing. McDowell diminishes the radical nature of his interpretation, and fails to address the underlying nature of the controversy in any significant fashion. He then goes to write a whole chapter which relies on the presumed but unsupported historical accuracy of the passage. An argument of this sort would quite literally have been laughed off the stage had it been presented to a board of respected historians. And, this is only ONE example of a recurring fault in McDowells treatment of the material he cites. The same failure of critical scholarship is prevalent throughout McDowell's books. In fact, McDowell does NOT conform even marginally to the usual standards of evaluation that modern historians and textual critics use to determine the authenticity of historical documents.

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Thank you for taking the time to read my essay, but it seems in your refusal to move on from the question of the existence of God you're missing the point.

I disagree. In a rational argument, one must first establish the validity of one's premise(s), and then proceed to present evidence that furthers the assumptions which are drawn from those premises. Your discussion puts the cart before the horse, as it were, and thus fails due to excessive speculation. In other words, I think that YOU are the one who is "missing the point."

TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

Based on the number and quality of objections you are listing here, and some others I've received in other forums, I'm going to write another blog to address them. It will be shorter (I hope) and minus the rhetoric, which seems to be a cause of some of the misunderstandings I'm seeing here. I'll address the issue of the Bible in more detail. In this essay it was rushed and compressed (a single paragraph) because it was secondary to the overall purpose. That does not mean it is the extent of my information or that I haven't heard/taken into account some similar historicity objections before. I'll title the blog "The Ethics of Prejudice Reconsidered" for easy finding. It'll probably be a couple of days, I'm in the process of moving and summer session finals, which eat my time. But I will get back to you, and hope that if I do not convince you, you will at least concede the rationality of my position. :) Thanks for the feedback!

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...and good luck with your tests.

TTFN,
Blackout
---
Patriotic Atheism
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

afungus amongus's picture

So what’s the alternative to this Engelhardt consumerism, to the helplessness of Hume, the pessimism of Kant, the cold practicality of Utilitarianism? Christian ethics. You may not accept the theological justification, but the whole point of these ethics is the respect of human dignity. Which is what everyone’s after, one way or another. Why else is there a Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the U.S. Constitution, or even the very idea of a people legally sovereign over themselves, legitimizing a government whose only purpose is that peoples’ welfare?

That's funny because "people's welfare" is a utilitarian idea which is at best an afterthought in Christian ethics. Attempts to defend human dignity frequently detract from human welfare, and that is why Christian ethics ought to be discarded.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

"Attempts to defend human dignity frequently detract from human welfare, "

Would you mind expanding on that? I am not sure what you mean, i think i do, but i'm not sure.

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

Please elaborate; I'm not sure how those two ideas necessarily conflict. It is certainly be possible to define them so they could, but that's true of any terms at all.

afungus amongus's picture

Welfare is associated with health, happiness, and well-being or well-"faring". When you wish someone farewell you are hoping that good things go his or her way. Utilitarianism (in the broadest sense) says you should maximize welfare.

Dignity is associated with esteem, nobility, and honor. Christian ethics, as I understand it, is a collection of biblical rules, many of which are taboos (thou shalt not X). These taboos are explained by reference to sacredness/sanctity/dignity which X violates - e.g. that of life, freedom, humanity, family, or God. The main rules of Christianity:

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
-Mattew 22:37

and

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
-Mattew 22:39

are not taboos, but are similarly justified nowadays in terms of sacredness/dignity. So Christian ethics are often seen as respecting dignity.

First, I'd like to argue (contrary to my previous post) that Christianity is really not about either welfare OR dignity. The bible praises humility over dignity:

For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.

They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.
-Habakkuk 1:6-7

Folly is set in great dignity, and the rich sit in low place.
-Ecclesiastes 10:6

The two "greatest commandments" and the Ten Commandments are never explained in the bible - you're supposed to obey them because God says so. Dignity is an ad-hoc rationalization that came about after the various rules it supposedly justifies.

Happiness/welfare appears a few times in the bible, but (as far as I know) aren't part of any commandments or laws. This isn't atheist prejudice, it is me searching biblegateway.com and finding nothing (prejudice would be if I said "Welfare is how the poor people are keeping you from buying another yacht"). Christian ethics are really just a bunch of rules to be taken on faith.

Setting Christianity aside, I will now argue that dignity is different from and often opposed to welfare. Consider how they are treated: we promote welfare, and we respect dignity. Dignity has an aura of untouchability, lending itself easily to taboos. This combines with its notorious vagueness to justify any kind of Elizabethan prudery. Welfare may be vague, but rather than rule things out it ranks them in order. It goes hand-in-hand with honest ethical discussion, the weighing of interests.

The acts essential to welfare are typically undignified or dignity neutral - eating, sleeping, and sex come to mind. While these can be performed in more or less dignified ways, the dignity with which you eat Corn Flakes has no bearing on how healthy they are; if your partner is a heavy sleeper, nobody is harmed by your snoring; and a variety of gross indignities can be perfectly safe during consensual sex.

The acts touted by most ethically minded Christians as affronts to dignity - abortion, euthanasia, unconventional marriage, stem cell research - all could make extremely positive contributions to welfare by any reasonable metric, if only we got ourselves out of the Dark Ages. People are slowly coming around, but the vast majority of Christians have dug in their claws every step of the way for centuries. The champions of science and progress (freethinkers including atheists, deists, and liberal Christians) dragged the bulk of Christianity into an era of unprecedented welfare kicking and screaming this nonsense about "dignity". But by all means, keep it up.

You raise a very interesting point. I'd almost like to write another blog to address it. Suffice it to say four things for now:

1. The Catholic definition of human dignity has nothing to do with rules "imposed" by God.* The rules are there, like modern legislation, to remind people how to act in a social setting so that the inherent rights of an individual are respected. To borrow the words of a non-Christian, "My freedom ends where yours begins." The bottom line definition of sin, where all sin starts, is treating people as things; that is, using them as means instead of recognizing that each human being is not a means but an end in himself.

2. "Welfare is associated with health, happiness, and well-being.... Dignity is associated with esteem, nobility, and honor." Associated with today, yes, but that's not the definition meant here. There are two senses of the word dignity. Esteem, nobility, and honor are public, social things, granted and taken away by other peoples' opinions of you. Having these taken away can be "degrading," the opposite of this social dignity. On the flip side is inherent dignity, or worth; in legal terms we say inherent rights (e.g., "we hold these truths to be self-evident...", the universal declaration of human rights, etc.) This is the dignity I am speaking of in terms of what Catholic social ethics seek to preserve. It is not in opposition to humility.

3. Your last paragraph assumes a great many things about abortion, euthanasia, and embryonic stem cell research, namely the question of life. (I leave out unconventional marriage because I am not in full agreement with the Church on that matter. I support it legally; the theological arguments, however, require some wrestling with.) Even beyond that, to assume these things benefit welfare IS a utilitarian position because it requires the conviction that the welfare of the majority is more important than the welfare of the individual, as euthanasia in the Netherlands and abortion practices in China adequately demonstrate. The good of the many does not always outweight the good of the one. Of course, then you have to define 'good,' which like all, or at least most, morality is case-specific.

4. "Consider how they are treated: we promote welfare, and we respect dignity." That is what we do, but that is based on the confusion of the two senses of dignity I mentioned above. Is it what we SHOULD be doing? If we promote dignity, we end up promoting welfare. The community is always an abstract. You must respect the individual so as to respect the community.
"This combines with its notorious vagueness to justify any kind of Elizabethan prudery. Welfare may be vague, but rather than rule things out it ranks them in order." There is nothing vague about the definition I have given. Welfare ranks things in order only in terms of a particular philosophy. Catholic social teaching unites the two; classic utilitarianism divides them to the detriment of the minority.
"[Welfare] goes hand-in-hand with honest ethical discussion, the weighing of interests." Implying human dignity has nothing to do with honest ethical discussion? If you mean the Church has no honest ethical discussion, that's one thing--and also untrue--but to say the concept of human dignity is inherently opposed to such is not to understand the concept at all. The "weighing of interests": if by this you mean basic cost-benefit analysis, sure. If you mean in the majority/minority conflicting utilitarian sense, then you're making a claim about the nature of human worth: that the majority's is to be respected and the minority's is not.

* The love thy God/neighbor and 10 commandments do not need to be "explained" in the sense I understand you to mean. They are direct first drivitives of first principles, such as, Life is good.

afungus amongus's picture

The rules are there, like modern legislation, to remind people how to act in a social setting so that the inherent rights of an individual are respected.

You are free to believe that, but this belief is not essential to Christianity. It is interesting how some versions of the Bible try to incorporate the picture you describe, replacing "the cause of the poor" (NKJV, Proverbs 29:7) with "the rights of the poor" (NASB). Another version reads "justice for the poor" (NIV). The stuff about means, ends, and inherent rights comes straight from Kant, not the Bible. Same for your claim that the rules are "direct first derivatives of first principles"; this is both dubious and absent from the Bible. Like I said it is a rationalization (which not all Christians, or even all Catholics, subscribe to) of the old rules. The proper terminology seems to be: "Christian ethics" is this set of Biblical rules; "Catholic ethics" includes official statements by the Catholic Church; and "Kantian ethics" is what you describe. "Love thy neighbor" is Christian; "Always recognize that human individuals are ends, and do not use them as means to your end." is Kantian.

Jesus reduces things to two fundamental laws in Mattew 22, but never explains those laws. I think one who simply takes them on faith should be considered a Christian, and yet has no idea of what you call "Christian ethics". One who also consciously obeys Papal decrees appears to be a Catholic despite unawareness of "Catholic ethics". The Old Testament says it outright: obey the rules because God says so, and God is nice to us.

When your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies, the statutes, and the judgments which the LORD our God has commanded you?’ then you shall say to your son: ‘We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand; and the LORD showed signs and wonders before our eyes, great and severe, against Egypt, Pharaoh, and all his household. Then He brought us out from there, that He might bring us in, to give us the land of which He swore to our fathers. And the LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded us.’
-Deuteronomy 6:20-25

I'll get around to (2-4) soonish.

afungus amongus's picture

So in this case, dignity = inherent dignity = inherent worth = inherent rights aren't opposed to humility; fair enough. What is meant by "Catholic ethics" (which modern scholars are legit?) and how do they promote dignity?

to assume these things benefit welfare IS a utilitarian position because it requires the conviction that the welfare of the majority is more important than the welfare of the individual, as euthanasia in the Netherlands and abortion practices in China adequately demonstrate. The good of the many does not always outweight the good of the one.

In Utilitarian ethics, individual good can outweigh the good of many - this is a premise of the "utility monster" objection. In some contentious social issues (gay marriage and euthanasia), individual good and public good coincide. The rights to marry and to die (would) promote both individual and public welfare.

Other issues (abortion and embryonic stem cell research) pit the value of a human fetus against some amount of human well-being. Reasonable people can disagree about where to draw the line, and they need not assume their conclusion. My point was that killing embryos sometimes benefits welfare, but talking in terms of dignity bypasses this debate. Therefore dignity and welfare can conflict.

afungus amongus's picture

If we promote dignity, we end up promoting welfare.

When you say "promote dignity" I assume you mean "promote respect for (or some kind of proper treatment of) dignity". I think you'd have to define "proper treatment" in terms of welfare for your statement to be true. This would make your idea of 'dignity' idiosyncratic; if you just speak in terms of welfare, you won't have to explain that the proper treatment of dignity is that which promotes welfare and that moral debate means comparing the properness of responses to dignity which means comparing the net effects on welfare. Just say 'maximize welfare'. Saves a lot of breath.

The community is always an abstract. You must respect the individual so as to respect the community.

If you mean "You must respect the individual in order to respect the community" then yes, I absolutely agree. Promoting some abstract "good/welfare of the many" is absurd unless it corresponds to "good/welfare of the individual" summed over all individuals in the community.

Catholic social teaching unites the two; classic utilitarianism divides them to the detriment of the minority.

What? I was raised Catholic and I never heard a peep about dignity or welfare. You can construct a definition of 'respect-of-dignity' to reproduce the more well-defined notion of welfare, but what on Earth does that have to do with Catholicism and utilitarianism?

"[Welfare] goes hand-in-hand with honest ethical discussion, the weighing of interests." Implying human dignity has nothing to do with honest ethical discussion?

Implying that the idea of human dignity confuses ethical discussions and is frequently used to avoid them.

if by this you mean basic cost-benefit analysis, sure. If you mean in the majority/minority conflicting utilitarian sense, then you're making a claim about the nature of human worth: that the majority's is to be respected and the minority's is not.

Utilitarian calculus is cost-benefit analysis, where costs and benefits are summed over everyone. How do you weigh various instances of respect-of-dignity?

Quote:

What? I was raised Catholic and I never heard a peep about dignity or welfare.

I have a friend who was a cradle Catholic and never heard the basic message "Jesus died to save us from our sins" til he was in high school. I wasn't taught about human dignity in my sunday school classes either, but the Church has very definite views about it and reasons for them. (Of course, nobody ever likes the Church's reasons.)

Quote:

Just say 'maximize welfare'. Saves a lot of breath.

And risk being misunderstood? Never. :) I prefer the phrase "human dignity" to "social welfare" in most contexts, or at least this context, because in the two imply a difference of quality in treatment. The latter usually fails to recognize respect of the individual or minority (yes, "in order to" is what I meant.) I don't think "dignity" is any less "well-defined" than welfare at all, just that people don't like it because it carries moral connotations and tends to be used by pro-lifers whereas welfare is nice and secular and is usually spoken of in purely political terms. Which, in modern times, means policy-divorced-from-ethics, which tends to bring us to a crass utilitarianism in the strictest sense of the term.

Utility is a philosophy for as-a-whole. Part of the reason for using 'Humn dignity" instead of "welfare" is it implies considering the individual first instead of that absrtact whole.

Quote:

Utilitarian calculus is cost-benefit analysis

What I meant was, anyone can weigh pros and cons, but the way utility was being used in the disucssion was not simply a method of doing that but an ethical position all its own. The danger comes when it's not recognized as such.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

triv-'s picture

I'm not going to comment on either the main blog nor the various comments at length - there's already quite a bit going on at present for that - but I do have something I'd like to say quickly with regard to the way in which "afungus amongus" is treating the blog.

You're pigeon-holing Christian ethics (the general topic of the blog) into strictly Biblical references because, it seems, you're on the internet and it's easy to quickly look up Biblical quotes to support whatever you're arguing. The problem with this is that you're thereby ignoring the rest of the development of Christian ethics up till now - you even made the distinction between Biblical and Kantian ethics, saying that Christian ethics lie in the former. This is simply false. While the Bible is obviously a part of the thinking of Christian academics (although far less so now than it has been) you can't just disregard the rest of Christian scholarship.

The whole point of the blog is to try and get non-believers to reconsider Christianity as a source of ethics for the modern world - whether or not it is successful is a moot point here. That being said, modern scholarship must be considered - and everything in between - so picking on exclusively Biblical points in a context where even Christians take those passages with a heavy dose of salt seems, well, silly.

Anyone can go to biblegateway.com and quickly find relevant passages for their inflated arguments, but you haven't shown an inkling of understanding of those passages in context - nor, for that matter, an understanding of Christianity generally.

(As a final note, you seem to be criticizing Christians generally by appealing to the Bible, but you perhaps don't realize that many Christians haven't read the Bible. (Perhaps most of them.))

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

because it has so many contradictions. It almost negates itself. Where one passage says "love" another says "kill." I like the Bible, and i have studied it, but this is something that one can't just glide past, especially when one tries to argue in support of the Bible logically. The best thing for Christian scholars to do is to separate the Bible from God, and look at it for what is, a collection of writing that has been translated into hundreds of versions and dozens of languages, that has evolved over time, and that was originally just a bunch of scrolls on which Jewish priests began recording their oral tradition and history to the best of their knowledge hundreds of years after the events described were said to have occurred. It is written by humans for humans, and that is why there are so many inconsistencies and flaws in logic if one tries to rationalize it as a perfect work.

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

afungus amongus's picture

You're pigeon-holing Christian ethics into strictly Biblical references

...because the Bible is the only source common to all Christians. You're pigeonholing Christian ethics when you include "the rest of Christian scholarship" because I've known Christians who don't care for Kant. Who are you to say they aren't true Christians? Christianity, by definition, requires some beliefs about Jesus, some of which may deal with ethics. But there is a whole spectrum of Christians from those who see Jesus as a personal hero and wise man, to those who accept the ancient texts but reject standard interpretations, to those who draw on a long history of Biblical interpretation and rationalization. It shows prejudice on your part to assume you (or Kant, or some fraction of modern Christian scholars) speak for all of them.

But I'm not terribly concerned with the definition of Christianity. This blog is supposed to be a defense of Christian ethics, so it should at the very least define "Christian ethics" and address the apparent flaws. I saw nothing like that; most of the blog attacks anti-Christian "prejudice" rather than attempt any kind of philosophical defense. When you claim that Christian ethics promote dignity, explain what you mean and give some evidence!

Anyone can go to biblegateway.com and quickly find relevant passages for their inflated arguments, but you haven't shown an inkling of understanding of those passages in context - nor, for that matter, an understanding of Christianity generally.

You're saying I missed some relevant context. Well? Care to show me, or are you just dissing my Christ creds?

triv-'s picture

I have a couple short replies and a long reply. Let's do a short and a long one, first.

turtlesuds:

You're absolutely right. I think you've misread me - or I misspoke, both are possible. I'm not suggesting at all that we ignore the Bible or that the Bible is in any way historical (I think some some scholars, Halpern and Friedman for instance, do a credible job of suggesting that parts of the Bible can be historical, mind you) only that it's not the whole story when we're looking at Christian ethics. I think it's rather obvious that no one group within Christian ethics can agree on what's "right" or "good" (let alone outside of Christian ethics) and focusing exclusively on the faults of the Bible clouds the issue. That being said, I'm not suggesting that the Bible shouldn't be looked at, only that "afungus amongus" was doing a particularly bad job of it. I think that Blackout had that base more-or-less covered without the need of further pushing.

afungus amongus:

Quote:

...because the Bible is the only source common to all Christians.

And you're somehow under the presumption that all Christians have common attitudes towards the Bible?

Quote:

You're pigeonholing Christian ethics when you include "the rest of Christian scholarship" because I've known Christians who don't care for Kant.

...no, I'm not. I'm not trying to create some single overarching and supreme view of ethics-as-all-Christians-see-it because that doesn't exist, but perhaps you are? I hope not - that wasn't my initial impression, at least. You are going to have to look at latter Christian scholarship simply because it pertains to Christian ethics and not all sets of Christian ethics have to do with the Biblical texts. As I said in my reply above, Blackout was doing a fine job dealing with Biblical problems and you were not. It seems for both myself and 'the voice of reason" you're making strawman arguments; please don't.

Quote:

Who are you to say they aren't true Christians?

When did I say anything about "true Christians"? I don't think I did.

Quote:

Christianity, by definition, requires some beliefs about Jesus, some of which may deal with ethics. But there is a whole spectrum of Christians from those who see Jesus as a personal hero and wise man, to those who accept the ancient texts but reject standard interpretations, to those who draw on a long history of Biblical interpretation and rationalization. It shows prejudice on your part to assume you (or Kant, or some fraction of modern Christian scholars) speak for all of them.

I don't presume to speak for any Christians. Wait a second here... you're saying there's a whole spectrum of Christians who rely on Biblical texts, and that's fine, but does that give you the right to ignore the rest of them? You're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing and pretending to do exactly what I'm trying to do; you're looking at a very particular group of Christians and ignoring the rest of them. I never suggested that we oughtn't look at the Bible, only that there's more to it than just the Bible.

Quote:

But I'm not terribly concerned with the definition of Christianity. This blog is supposed to be a defense of Christian ethics, so it should at the very least define "Christian ethics" and address the apparent flaws. I saw nothing like that; most of the blog attacks anti-Christian "prejudice" rather than attempt any kind of philosophical defense. When you claim that Christian ethics promote dignity, explain what you mean and give some evidence!

Well, I can at least sympathize with you here - if nothing else. The problem, I think, is not that a definition is missing but that you're taking the blog slightly out of context - not that this makes your criticisms moot, let me make that clear now. The essay, mind, was written for a class of Christians who had all done the same readings and participated in the same lectures and discussions with the same prof and with the same set of definitions for the class. I think that the definitions are implied but that readers would have to have some sort of prior conversation with the author in order to pick up on them. That being said, obviously you cannot be held at fault for missing it, but it pays to take very seriously the context of the paper. (And keep that in mind, too, it was a paper first, not a blog.)

Quote:

You're saying I missed some relevant context. Well? Care to show me, or are you just dissing my Christ creds?

Being on the internet, mostly the latter, to be honest. I don't really have any particular interest in going into an in depth look at Biblical contexts nor the specifics of the variety of Christian views of ethics over time - let alone dealing with how it changes based on technology, say, or the invention of the individual. The story is simple: I was on here, thought that you weren't being very fair, and said so.

afungus amongus's picture

And you're somehow under the presumption that all Christians have common attitudes towards the Bible?

I'm not trying to create some single overarching and supreme view of ethics-as-all-Christians-see-it because that doesn't exist, but perhaps you are? I hope not - that wasn't my initial impression, at least. You are going to have to look at latter Christian scholarship simply because it pertains to Christian ethics and not all sets of Christian ethics have to do with the Biblical texts. As I said in my reply above, Blackout was doing a fine job dealing with Biblical problems and you were not. It seems for both myself and 'the voice of reason" you're making strawman arguments; please don't.

You're right, many people reject entire chapters of the Old Testament yet still hold the relevant beliefs about Christ. However, the Bible (including various books, not all of which are official canon for all Christians) contains virtually everything we know about the character and teachings of this fellow called Christ, so how could specific extra-biblical sources (such as Kant) be essential to Christian ethics?

Interpretation is needed to make sense of the Bible, but you seem to agree there are myriad ways to go about it. If Christian ethics include Kant, why not Kierkegaard ("truth is subjectivity")? How can we synthesize the infinite variety of Christian scholarship into a coherent ethic?

If VOR was promoting this entire class of ethical theories, I don't see how he can associate them with concepts like dignity, welfare, and rights without also promoting persecution and eternal torture. He's overstating the case for Christianity - Christian ethics, broadly speaking, include a plethora of ideas unfit for modern life. On top of that, these ethics are either incoherent (as argued above) or arbitrary (as per my "strawman arguments" about rules to be taken on faith). If you're picking and choosing specific interpretations, fess up.

I don't really have any particular interest in going into an in depth look at Biblical contexts nor the specifics of the variety of Christian views of ethics over time - let alone dealing with how it changes based on technology, say, or the invention of the individual. The story is simple: I was on here, thought that you weren't being very fair, and said so.

I didn't adequately acknowledge the fact that many Christians reject pieces of the Old Testament. Did I miss any other context? You made it sound like I totally distorted the meanings of passages - can you cite any passages that clear things up? I don't think one example is too much to ask.

triv-'s picture

Well, I'm going to make some sweeping generalizations and answer all of your questions at once.

The context I'm talking about is not necessarily Biblical context (i.e., context from the text itself) but the context of Christianity generally. Certain Biblical passages are not taken seriously by some (if not most or all) believers and further passages are sometimes seen in entirely different lights when you look at one denomination or another - or at sections instead of sentences.

My problem with your treatment of the text is that it [at least] seems like you just looked up keywords on biblegateway to fit your argument and that was it. For instance, you make this reference:

Quote:

Folly is set in great dignity, and the rich sit in low place.
-Ecclesiastes 10:6

but one could just as easily quote,

"Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron, to give him dignity and honor."
Exodus 28:1-3

or perhaps, "Terrors overwhelm me; my dignity is driven away as by the wind, my safety vanishes like a cloud."
Job 30:14-16

Both of these quotes show the idea of dignity in a positive light: as something positive to be given or negative to be taken away, respectively. On top of that, coming from Exodus or Job seems more appropriate than Ecclesiastes because the latter book tends to stray quite a bit from what one expects from Biblical texts - have you read it?

Likewise, I just used Kant as an example because he had already come up and I wanted to avoid an unnecessary tangent about a variety of Christian thinkers. Of course Kierkegaard counts - and so does Aquinas, and Augustine and whomever else. My point is that scholars over a vast period of time (we are talking about 6000 years here) have expanded on and remedied various parts of strictly Biblical ethics which now are more prevalent in the modern Christian idea of ethics. To do what you've been doing regarding the Bible and Christian ethics generally would be to say that all astronomical discoveries are garbage because Aristotle made a distinction between linear movement on Earth and circular movement in the sky thereby showing that movement is different here and in the heavens; or, to go back to Kant, that aliens exist! (Anyone else read Kant's stuff on astronomy he wrote in his twenties?)

I should make it clear that I have no problem with your looking up bits of the Bible on the internet for your arguments (I admit it's much easier and more convenient than reading through the entire thing for specific examples) but making a wide presumption and throwing out a quote as if saying, "therefore I am incontrovertibly correct" seems a little more than shifty.

afungus amongus's picture

Both of these quotes show the idea of dignity in a positive light: as something positive to be given or negative to be taken away, respectively.

I only claimed that the Bible praises humility over dignity; you are right that dignity is not always shown in a negative light, but I'd be surprised to see anything against humility. Everyone knows about Matthew 5:5 ("Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the Earth"). But this is all beside the point, because the Bible associates dignity with honor/status to be gained and lost - it doesn't refer to 'inherent dignity'...which leads to our discussion of sources outside the Bible.

have you read it?

No, is it good? I've only read Genesis, Exodus, and Leviticus but I found them hilarious.

To do what you've been doing regarding the Bible and Christian ethics generally would be to say that all astronomical discoveries are garbage because Aristotle made a distinction between linear movement on Earth and circular movement in the sky thereby showing that movement is different here and in the heavens;

Not quite; I'd be saying that Aristotelian astronomical discoveries are inadequate for modern astronomy. Calling Kantian ethical theory Christian is as absurd as calling Big Bang theory Aristotelian.

making a wide presumption and throwing out a quote as if saying, "therefore I am incontrovertibly correct" seems a little more than shifty.

You corrected me and I learned more about dignity in the Bible. If I make wild claims it is because I'm an idiot, not because I'm trying to pull a fast one on you. I promise :)

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

i love stinky cheese :). The stinkier the better...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1f4L76TeHU

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

Quote:

But this is all beside the point, because the Bible associates dignity with honor/status to be gained and lost - it doesn't refer to 'inherent dignity'...which leads to our discussion of sources outside the Bible.

Of the many things I would like to say to this discussion, this is perhaps the most important. Which bits of Christianity, exactly, are you referencing when you talk about Christian Ethics? Because original Christianity--Roman Catholicism--doesn't do the whole "sola scriptura" thing like Protestantism. Something doesn't have to be explicitly stated word-for-word in the Bible for it to be Christian. That said, 'inherent dignity' as a concept is most certaininly in the Bible. The easiest place to spot this is in the Gospels. That idea is the logical conclusion of some of the stuff Jesus says. Otherwise, what's the point?

Which goes back to the original comments about Kant, I might add, because it's not as if Christians woke up one morning and said, Gee, Kant had some good ideas, let's Christianize them. If anything, Kant was responding to Christianity.

I would also like to make the point that Kant's ideas are a bit Christian. Either he's taken something that is a bit Christian and isolated it to extremes and ridiculosity, or he's more Christian than the Christians. For example, he's all about following rules. Well, Christians like that too, except they also make room for the Aristotelian concept of equity. His principle about going against what you want in all cases, ridiculous as the idea of pursuing happiness while not being about it may seem, contains part of a fundamental good idea, which happens to make a lovely argument for "love thy neighbor." Love of the will and not emotion and all that.

Just a thought. Carry on :)

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

afungus amongus's picture

Which bits of Christianity, exactly, are you referencing when you talk about Christian Ethics?

Christianity is a class of belief systems based on the teachings of Christ; everything else is optional. There are two senses of 'Christian Ethics': narrowly, the ethic taught by Christ; and broadly, the class of ethics associated with Christianity. This broad sense includes Mormon, Kantian, Unitarian, Catholic, Biblical, Calvinist, and many more ethics.

original Christianity--Roman Catholicism--doesn't do the whole "sola scriptura" thing like Protestantism. Something doesn't have to be explicitly stated word-for-word in the Bible for it to be Christian.

Agreed. Anything implicitly stated in the Bible or associated with the various sects is also Christian in the broad sense.

That said, 'inherent dignity' as a concept is most certaininly in the Bible. The easiest place to spot this is in the Gospels. That idea is the logical conclusion of some of the stuff Jesus says. Otherwise, what's the point?

Could you direct me to a specific section? Include as much context as you want, as long as it deals with the stuff Jesus says.

If anything, Kant was responding to Christianity.

I would also like to make the point that Kant's ideas are a bit Christian.

Agreed. You could say they have a Christian flavor to them.

His principle about going against what you want in all cases, ridiculous as the idea of pursuing happiness while not being about it may seem, contains part of a fundamental good idea, which happens to make a lovely argument for "love thy neighbor." Love of the will and not emotion and all that.

Yeah, he tried to deduce the Golden Rule from the value of freedom. This is part of a broadly Christian ethical tradition which unfortunately also includes the inquisition, crusades, eternal torture, and various obsolete doctrines.

Christian, Catholic, and Kantian ethics - each has core beliefs plus associated traditions, and therefore comes in narrow and broad forms. Dignity ethics is a whole other system with various formulations. I oppose all of the above, even when you toss in adjectives like 'mainstream' and 'modern'.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

I was raised Protestant, and was taught that Catholicism was sort of an evil empire. i am inclined to agree, simply because of the way it was formed, with Constantine adding the symbol of the cross to his flag that pointed toward the Sun (his first acknowledged Deity) and waging war. i hardly think that Catholicism was inspired by Jesus. I think it was the envelopment of Christianity by the Roman Empire that has permanently marred the reputation of Christianity world wide. That is my personal opinion. Remember, Jesus didn't have a church....he wanted to tear down the temples...many of his prophecies and parables center on this very core part of his teaching...

so i find Catholic oriented "philosophies" and "ethics" almost oxymoronic. church based teachings do not reflect Christ based teachings...it was the Catholic/ Roman Empire that took up the crusades of conversion by the sword.

other issues i have encountered with Catholic "ethics" are ideas like the "infallibility of the Pope," sorry, but no where does Jesus teach that anyone is infallible, even the greatest heros of the Bible were fallible and committed great sins, ie: David and Bathsheba, jacob and his mother rebecca deceiving Isaac, Peter denying Jesus, the only "infallible" character is supposed to have been Jesus,, but even he had his moments...

the Catholic church and Pope (as a historical figure, not the individual holding the title today) are no different to me than the caliphs of Islam. and their historical habits of conquering and ruling no different than the efforts of Sharia law enforcers...

of course, with semantics, anyone can wriggle and worm their way into their own understanding that doesn't absorb these significant and unavoidable facts of *history* but one cannot make them go away, no matter how articulate they are in repeating more humanistic elements of the Church's teachings, such as in the value placed on charity.

for me, until the church actually denounces its history, thereby renouncing its "infallibility," i will not hold respect for it. that doesn't mean i cannot appreciate the individual thoughts and actions of many individuals who have been "oriented" to life through the church, but i cannot respect the church itself.

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

afungus amongus's picture

I read it last night - short and sweet, and yes, very different from most of the Bible. I can see how quotes from there could be misleading since imperatives are nested inside of a narrative; the narrator, Qoheleth, seems to be considered a wise man but not a prophet. He goes on about how "all is vanity" but then recommends trivial pleasures anyways because apparently he believes there is no afterlife... I like the attempt at philosophizing but I think it falls prey to existentialism (one step away from nihilism).

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association
Quote:

The problem with this is that you're thereby ignoring the rest of the development of Christian ethics up till now - you even made the distinction between Biblical and Kantian ethics, saying that Christian ethics lie in the former. This is simply false. While the Bible is obviously a part of the thinking of Christian academics (although far less so now than it has been) you can't just disregard the rest of Christian scholarship.

Responses to a blog are usually made in the context of the arguments and assertions presented by the blogger. In this case, the blogger stated...

The real, substantial difference between Christian theology and secular philosophy is that the philosopher attempts to prove his premise before drawing a conclusion. Christians start with an un-argued premise—the Bible was divinely inspired—and work from there

As such, discussing the actual contents of the bible seems perfectly relevant to a discussion of biblical-based ethics. As someone who has studied the bible extensively, both as a (former) believer and in a scholarly context during my later education, I would be happy to engage you on any point of contention you may have regarding the contents of the scripture, and how they can reasonably interpreted in light of their known historical contexts as well as the associated theological assertions of the various chrisitan sects.

TTFN,
Blackout
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Patriotic Atheism
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

triv-'s picture
Quote:

...discussing the actual contents of the bible seems perfectly relevant to a discussion of biblical-based ethics. As someone who has studied the bible extensively, both as a (former) believer and in a scholarly context during my later education, I would be happy to engage you on any point of contention you may have regarding the contents of the scripture, and how they can reasonably interpreted in light of their known historical contexts as well as the associated theological assertions of the various chrisitan sects.

Of course discussing the Bible is relevant.

I don't mind criticizing the Bible, and I pinpointed "afungus amongus" for my reply because I didn't have any particular issue with your post or your treatment of the text - blog or Bible. (However, you have to admit that there's something very different in the way you approached criticism of it and the way "afungus amongus" did.)

I'm kinda in the midst of some semi-extensive Biblical studies (working on Biblical Hebrew... slowly) but more in my free time out of a personal interest. Officially, I'm doing Classical stuff. That being said, I don't think we'd really disagree on too much outside of maybe "this scholar says this!" "oh yeah?! well THIS scholar says this".

I also just realized something. You're probably all under the impression that I'm a Christian - and I'm sure that colours some of what I was saying. No, no; I'm an atheist through-and-through.

triv-][quote wrote:

I also just realized something. You're probably all under the impression that I'm a Christian - and I'm sure that colours some of what I was saying. No, no; I'm an atheist through-and-through.

Of course. It colours everything. Stereotype, prejudice, attitude...
People at my college treat my opinions as suspect because I'm "too secular," people on the internet do the same because I'm "too Christian." And around and around we go.

I'm following the continuing discussions on here with interest and working on a proper detailed response. Procrastination and Real Life distract only for so long, eventually it'll get done.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

You might find some of my blogs on this topic interesting:

Religious Intolerance Is Everywhere:
http://progressiveu.org/blog/50436-religious-intolerance-everywhere

Rules For Religious Tolerance:
http://progressiveu.org/blog/50564-rules-religious-tolerance

Secularism: Science vs. Religion:
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/50730-secularism-greatest-modern-challe...

and, How Religion Keeps Us From God:
http://progressiveu.org/blog/49231-how-religion-keeps-us-god

It can be very frustrating to back track and try to untangle oneself from all of the preconceived prejudices that occur when one dares to mention either "God" or "Jesus." I find the process to be very engaging and fascinating though...that is what makes it progressive.

Also, and this question is for all who have commented here: blackout, afungus amongus, triv-and the voice of reason, as well as darwin's beagle:

What exactly is "apologetics?" I realize the original blog has defined it in a certain light, but i am interested in its "historicity" i guess, and i find the word itself begs suspicion. Is an apology for the all of the confusion created by Catholicism/ Christianity?

also, I am reminded of something I read that i have kept and treasure. Here is a link to an article by Raimon Pannikar, in which he states that true interfaith dialogue must be *free* from apologetics, which makes me have less respect for Catholic apologetics, but I might be oversimplifying matters, which is why I ask the question.

http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/staffhome/gehall/Hall_Panikkar.htm

The first two rules of the game of the Religious Encounter are:

1. It must be free from particular apologetics. The Christian, Hindu or Buddhist must not approach the dialogue with the a priori idea of defending one's own tradition over or against the other.

2. It must be free from general apologetics. Those involved in interfaith dialogue should not see their task in terms of defending religion in general against the non-religious or anti-religious attitudes of secular society. This would turn the religious encounter into an ideological movement as well being simplistic in its rejection of modern secular consciousness.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, my question is, if something is True, why should one have to apologize for it, and by apologizing, isnt that an acknowledgment that it can't be True?

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

The term is derrived from the legal system of the ancient Greeks which meant literally "to speak in defense." In modern scientific and technical terms, apologetics refer to the practice of defending a point of view against criticism. Religious (and specifically christian) apologetics refers to the practics of defending religious dogma against application of rational criticism in the promotion of religious conversion.

TTFN,
Blackout
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Patriotic Atheism
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

this is the root of my problem with it, and with many who demand apologies from me for my beliefs:

"apologetics refers to the practics of *defending* religious dogma against application of rational criticism *in the promotion of* religious *conversion*.

That is the very distinct difference between people of faith and integrity and people who are evangelical crusaders for religion.

I don't like apologetics, but I am forced to engage in them if I choose to express myself genuinely. I don't mind, because the process is progressive, as I said, but I just found it personally poignant to see why apologetics are so aggressive.

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

Raimon Panikkar is one of my theological heroes :) And he is absolutely right. Dialgoue is not apologetics or catechesis or proclamation, and anyone who confuses them will not succeed at either. This is because you can't really understand what someone says if you start out determined that the whole conversation is nothing but a My Truth Can Beat Up Your Truth competition and since I'm Right then You're Wrong. Listening involves the possibility of mutual change. Proclamation leaves change open in only one direction. This is actually part of another blog I have in the works (much farther along than the historicity one! Interreligious dialogue is my particular area of study.) I don't see why that should make you have any less respect for Christian apologetics; dialogue and apologetics-nee'-proclamation* are simply two different things. Related, in the sense that apologetics is merely explaining what Is so it won't be confused what's Perceived, but different.

*Proclamation being the specific part of evangelization that's all "I will convert you!" Evangelization is actually much broader, and less ominious to nonbelievers, despite the overtones Evangelical Protestants give it.

But as per your question:
Apologetics, in its broadest sense, is the explaining of Christianity to non-Christians. Because, as has been said, misconceptions and prejudice are all over the place. I don't like calling myself an apologist because on the other end I'm usually first in line to offer what I like to call "constructive criticism" and my exclusively 'conservative'-minded friends like to call "heretical suggestions" to the Church, but as far as apologetics is simply stating the truth about Christianity to clear up misconceptions and respond to arguments posed against it (both legitimate and ridiculous,) in that sense apologetics is simply the art of truth said prettily. A branch of rhetoric, as it were.

Of course, not all apologists are any good. Personally I tend to be extremely wary of the evangelicals, but I do reccommend G.K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis, and although he may not technically be an apologist, St. Thomas Aquinas.

Hope that helps. Sorry if I rambled a bit. There's just so many directions this kind of discussion can go.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Great answer, no *apology* necessary, for the tangential rambling...I love it! I know all too well how you feel. My church considered considered me a blasphemer when I was younger, and didn't know you can only ask a Christian for so much. So much truth, honesty, tolerance, and understanding. Now i find myself *apologizing* for my apparent irrationality in my own sense of personal Truth. its all very confusing, and fascinating at the same time. Funny, was just thinking this morning about the beauty of Blasphemy. A blog that is begging to be written, "The Passion of Anne Rice." Anne Rice used to write about vampires and witches. My favorite book of hers is "Memnoch The Devil." it doesn't read like a story. More like the Bhagavad Gita http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/articles/660/1/Introduction-to-Bhagavad-Gita...

Ooops, the tangenting in infectious. I wrote the whole blog "The Passion of Anne Rice" http://progressiveu.org/blog/52686-passion-anne-rice in this comment :) LOL, now, back to the discussion at hand. Thanks for your distinctions. I found this interesting: "apologetics is simply the art of truth said prettily." I don't like the word. It feels like feigned humility, "I am so sorry to have to tell you the truth," and it is condescending in another sense, sort of apologizing for how stupid you must be if you don't believe me. It feels dishonest. I think what you say makes it seem like what the apologists are *trying* to do is to perfect Religious Diplomacy, which is entirely different, and probably much more effective. And yeah, evangelism is a word i tend to run away from.

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Just want to throw that in there, I am too tired/ spent to address individual statements, but i love this kind of discussion.

I love afungus amongus, he ( i presume he) rocks, and so does this new blogger...and of course blackout serves to draw the lines of fair play...love it all, and love you all...

just have to say for the record that afungus amongus is amazing, and i wish he/she would speak up more frequently, his/ her understanding of philosophy in the historical context is amazing, and is what, i think, gives him/ her so much credit, and also the bench of objectivity..

props, props and more props...

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

afungus amongus's picture

Don't you sense my uber macho manly vibes? I love that you weren't sure. Thanks for the love :) we have lots of smart people here with plenty of disagreements to sort out, that's why this is fun!

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

but i have made the mistake of assuming wrongly before, so I don't do that anymore :)

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

because i like the progression of this discussion, still, would like to see it edited, widdled down to the core, and perhaps the scraps could be their own pieces.

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

triv-'s picture
Quote:

I love afungus amongus, he ( i presume he) rocks, and so does this new blogger...and of course blackout serves to draw the lines of fair play...love it all, and love you all...

Yeah, despite the disagreements, it's nice to be both on the internet and dealing with people who avoid chatspeak - an experience I have not had often. I misspoke, I shouldn't really say *despite* the disagreements because, as afungus amongus said, that's what makes this all fun.

I think that it's a little shifty calling me a "blogger" since I don't actually have any blogs yet! I think I have an idea that I'll pursue later on tonight - and I say this because if I didn't then later on I might think "meh, I'll do it tomorrow," and that could last for weeks. But now I have an obligation to fulfill!

For now, I'm off! Stay tuned.

turtlesuds's picture
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triv- said:

"Well that was nothing if not unexpected..." Huh?

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

triv-'s picture

Nah, it makes sense.

"Well that was nothing if not unexpected."

Three negatives make, well, a negative! I'm surprised you haven't heard this colloquialism before, but it just means that I wasn't expecting a post like the one I had replied to.

turtlesuds's picture
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i wasn't sure if that is what you intended, so i asked, thanks fancy pants :)

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

then your a "blogger," by ProU standards anyway :) welcome, and I enjoyed your blog "Actions Mean More Than Feelings."

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

Busy working on my response blog about the historicity of the Bible, and I just want to make sure we're on the same general page with starting definitions and authorities, otherwise this is just going to get more confused.

The word "historicity" has been thrown around a lot. How exactly are you defining it, when you deny the historicity of the Bible? Are we talking in terms of "events that happened we can verify happened through archaeology and other literary sources"? If so, what kind of events? That is, is the argument being applied to the burning bush, or less theologically-charged episodes? Are there other, broader, or more specific definitions or standards you're using?

People have been telling me The Experts and Researchers With Integrity all deny the historicity of the Bible. Can you suggest the names of some of the best of these guys, so I can look into them?

I have a good starting list, just wanted the broadest range of input since I am addressing largely objections specific to this discussion. :)

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...to your definition of historicity, but I tend to use it in the general sense of referring to events that have been determined to be "historically accurate" through mainstream scholarship. I also don't recall anyone here saying that "all" credible modern scholars have taken a position of denying the historicity of the bible. MOST mainstream modern scholars, for example, accept that there probably was a historical Jesus, however few of those scholars would accept the proposal that every event attributed to that figure in the bible is historically accurate.

As to what I mean when speaking of the historicity of the bible, that is a bit more complicated. Modern folks tend to view the bible as a single, monolithic source. This is inaccurate. The bible is a collection of books, scrolls and oral traditions that come from a disparate range of historical dates and locations. Some of these books are more historically accurate than others. There is also the complication of the stories such as the one you mention (i.e. the burning bush) which are rather obviously mythical rather than historical. Untangling the two can be quite a task at times. I believe those stories are relevant, however, in demonstrating that the bible cannot be viewed as entirely historical document. And, there are specific books (like Daniel) which contain some pretty obvious inaccuracies.

One good source that I would suggest you might find interesting is Dr. Israel Finkelstein. He's religious AND well respected in scholarly circles. Dr. Israel presents a case that deals frankly and objectively with the archeological evidence measured against the stories in the bible, with an occasional tangent into the textual criticism of the scriptures. Some of that evidence supports certain stories, much of it does not.

TTFN,
Blackout
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turtlesuds's picture
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do my eyes deceive me? did i actually read blackout use "religious" and "well respected" in the same sentence, about the same person?

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

triv-'s picture

Way off topic, but this reminds me on an episode of "The Naked Archaeologist" about David, and Baruch Halpern was on talking about his book, "David's Secret Demons". Finklestein came up in the conversation because he has an alternative viewpoint from Halpern's and, if I recall correctly, Halpern called him Finky. Then he made the clarification that he does, in fact, call him Finky.

Hehehe. I couldn't find the clip online, but the show aired in 2005 - long time ago, it seems.

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

"Historicity" means "historical authenticity". In my religious studies the term is most often used in reference to specific people. For example ... Jesus. The questions asked about the historicity of Jesus include, "Did such a person actually exist?"; "What did he really do and say?"; and "Are specific things (the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc.) about him true?"

When applied to the bible itself, questions of historicity involve, "What in the bible is historically correct?" Nobody argues that nothing in the bible is historical authentic. That would be foolish. However, there are some people that argue that everything in the bible is historically authentic, and that is equally foolish. If you want to look at serious scholarship, you need to avoid these people. They is no contradiction in fact or biblical word that they will not try to reconcile even at the price of using the most twisted logic possible. However, since you call yourself a Christian apologist, these are your cohorts. Go ahead and read them. I'm sure you'll be more impressed with their arguments than are mainstream critical scholars.

If you want to get a good idea of mainstream scholarship I would recommend you read an overview of the bible by a scholar from a secular university. The ones I used were:

(1) For the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible--
Gerald LaRue (from UCLA). His textbook can be found online here. I suspect LaRue is an atheist since he gave permission for the textbook to be published online at www.infidels.org, an atheist website. However, I thought the material was unbiased. You can make up your own mind.

(2) For the Apocrypha--
David A. DeSilva. His book is here. I bought the book from Half Price Books. I found it to be OK but dry. I suspect DeSilva is a believer. I do not know his university affiliation

(3) For the New Testament--
Bart Ehrman of the University of North Carolina. His book is here. This is the textbook that is used in most mainstream seminaries for their New Testament introduction course. Erhman is now an agnostic, but I suspect at the time he wrote the original textbook he was a believer.

Mainstream academicians that have published reputable material on archaeology of the bible include:

(1) Israel Finkelstein (here, here, and here)

(2) William Dever (here, here, and here)

For Christian writings that did not make it into the biblical canon I recommend:

(1) Bart Ehrman (again). See here and here.

(2) Elaine Pagels. See here

For textual criticism of the bible"

(1) Bart Ehrman (again). See here, here, here, here, and here.

(2) Bruce Metzger. See here. Metzger is a renowned professor at the Princeton Presbyterial Seminary. He is a devout believer. He is also the professor that Bart Ehrman studied under. The book listed above was cowritten by Ehrman in fact. This was most definitely done during Ehrman's Christian period.

On the historicity of Jesus:

(1) Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar. See here. This is a very controversial book. Do not use it as your only source. It is very skeptical, it believes that only 18% of the biblical quotations attributed to Jesus in the bible were likely to have been said by Jesus.

(2) Gerd Theissen. See here

(3) Paula Fredriksen. See here

(4) John Domminic Crossan. I'm not going to recommend any specific book by him. I list him because of his reputation (which among critical scholars is excellent). My personal opinion is that his books are nearly unreadable though. Even though his sentiments and mine are generally compatible I haven't been too impressed with his stuff.

Other critical books that give important information include:

Burton Mack. See here and here, here

Gerd Leudemann. See here, here, here, here, here, and here

These are by no means the only books, nor for that matter have I included certain classic books (such as Albert Schweitzer's The Quest for the Historical Jesus). But these books should get you started into a field of critical inquiry that I suspect has been unknown to you before now. Depending upon your religious propensities I suspect you willl either find them disconcerting and dismiss them long before you have read through many of them, or you will become interested in a topic or two. If it is the later then I would encourage you to look for the classics to get a more complete overview of the topic. You should be able to figure out what those classic texts are from the list I have given you.

Good luck whichever way your journey goes.

Cheers,

DB

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

turtlesuds's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Thanks for this :). Certainly valuable information....I wish i had more time to devote to such studies, but i am bookmarking this comment for future reference. Have a wonderful day :)

"O, I'm sorry you took that, -I meant that for the Devil, and you have stepped in and taken the blow. Don't get between me and the Devil, brother, and the you won't get hurt." --Billy Hibbard

Thanks for the extensive list of resources. Until this point my religious inquiries have been in entirely other directions, so I never needed these particular Experts, and was only occasionally, passingly interested in the Quoters of the Experts. This helps a lot.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

I was hoping you would join in this discussion. I'm pleased that my source actually made your suggested list.

TTFN,
Blackout
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First: I have done my best to obtain as many of the resources you've mentioned, and ones I've gathered from other critcs, as I can with no money and only a small library at my disposal. Sadly, I haven't come up with much. I'm working with what I've got, but the biblical historicity blog will likely be on the back burner for a while. My other projects related to this blog and criticisms of it will thus likely (perhaps--I hope) be up much faster.

Second: If I had done more than skim your comment the first time, I might have been offended.

Quote:

They is no contradiction in fact or biblical word that they will not try to reconcile even at the price of using the most twisted logic possible. However, since you call yourself a Christian apologist, these are your cohorts. Go ahead and read them. I'm sure you'll be more impressed with their arguments than are mainstream critical scholars.

Saying that all apparant contradictions really are so is just as ridiculous as what you're lampooning here; I've never claimed to be a Christian apologist in the strict (and negative way I'm getting from everyone here) sense of the term; and no matter what my theological commitments may or may not be I am a student of philosophy and a former debater, and as such do my darndest to be impressed with an argument on its own merits and not whether it fits into my preconceived notions or not.

Most of the time I find it's the doubters who are more unwilling to accept arguments against their positions, anyway. To paraphrase G.K. Chesterton in "Orthodoxy," Faith always leaves room for doubt in a God, but militant atheism leaves no room for change. "The materialist's world is quite simple and solid, just as the madman is quite sure he is sane...Materialists and madmen never ahve doubts. Spiritual doctrines do not actually limit the mind, as do materialistic denials. Even if I believe in immortality I need not think about it. But if I disbelieve in immortality I must not think about it. In the first acse the road is open and I can go as far as I like; in the second the road is shut."

Anyways, thanks again for the feedback.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association
Quote:

I have done my best to obtain as many of the resources you've mentioned, and ones I've gathered from other critcs, as I can with no money and only a small library at my disposal.

Wait a minute...didn't you say (or at least imply) that you were attending a catholic institution that teachers a class in christian apologetics? Don't you find it odd that a school that is to some significant degree focused on the bible as a major source, and which attempts to provide its students with the methods and means to "rationally" defend their beliefs though apologetics, would have so very few resources that actually address the subject? Failing to at least familiarlze you with the strongest arguments from the opposing view-point seems like a pretty significant oversight. Don't you agree?

TTFN,
Blackout
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It's almost July. School's out. I live at home during the summers in a small town with crappy libraries, at a significant distance from my institution. I can't afford to the gas to drive to the nearest decent library right now because I'm still out of a job, and for the same reason can't afford the library card fee that would give me access to the inter-library loan. As soon as I have that, I'll have access to the books.

And as I have said before, I only just took a Christian apologetics class this summer. It was short, crammed, and without time to read much of anything beyond main header ideas. If being new to the subject is a crime, then shoot me.

Also, I've been meaning to say, some of these ideas you're quoting as Standard in the field come from sources that are about as biased as you can get. I refuse to take anyone at face value because as many historians are Christian-biased, there are a great many others, the ones you're touting as Irrefutable, who manipulate the evidence to their ends, anti-Christian prejudice firmly in hand. There are a small number of scholars who don't do this.

If you really want to prove the Bible is inconsistent, I suggest you do more than find scholars that agree with you and actually evaluate why their arguments against the people you consider unprofessional are "better." Is it just because they have an atheistic bent, or is it because they're actually treating the evidence fairly?

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association
Quote:

It's almost July. School's out.

Fair enough.

Quote:

And as I have said before, I only just took a Christian apologetics class this summer. It was short, crammed, and without time to read much of anything beyond main header ideas. If being new to the subject is a crime, then shoot me.

I won't shoot you. But I will tell you that maybe you shouldn't lead off with an accusation that your opponents are ignorant of the subject matter, if you aren't prepared to back it up by demonstrating that YOU are better informed than they.

Quote:

Also, I've been meaning to say, some of these ideas you're quoting as Standard in the field come from sources that are about as biased as you can get. I refuse to take anyone at face value because as many historians are Christian-biased, there are a great many others, the ones you're touting as Irrefutable, who manipulate the evidence to their ends, anti-Christian prejudice firmly in hand. There are a small number of scholars who don't do this.

The only source I pointed you towards specifically was Israel Finkelstein, who is by faith a traditional jew. He might not be on the exact same page as a catholic, but he's definitely not biased against a belief in the events depicted in the old testament. He's a believer who happens not to be willing to discount evidence just because that evidence conflicts with a bronze-age biblical account.

Quote:

If you really want to prove the Bible is inconsistent, I suggest you do more than find scholars that agree with you and actually evaluate why their arguments against the people you consider unprofessional are "better." Is it just because they have an atheistic bent, or is it because they're actually treating the evidence fairly?

Who needs a scholar to find Inconsistencies in the bible? We can just look for ourselves...

Let's see...we already went over the basic inconsistencies in the cannons of the various christian sects, so I'll skip that for now. Let's start with a few literal inconsistencies...

"And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen." (1 Kings 4:26)
"And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem." (2 Chronicles 9:25)

Only in bible-math does 40,000 = 4,000.

"And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." (Matthew 1:16)
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli." (Luke 3:23)

I guess Joseph had two daddies...

"And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:25-26)

In this version of the creations story, "god" made the animals first, then man.

"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." (Genesis 2:18-19)

But in this version, "god" makes man first, and then the animals.

For a book that is supposedly "true," the bible says a lot of decidedly untrue things. For example, Leviticus 6:11 says that rabbits chew their cud, which of course they don't. Leviticus 11:19 and Deuteronomy 14:18 refer to the bat as a kind of bird, and Genesis 3:14 says that snakes eat dust. It is easy to see why a primitive person might think that these things are true, but today we know that they are not.

And while we're at it, there are also numerous thematic contradictions in the various biblical accounts. For example...

"The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon." (Psalms 92:12)
"The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come." (Isaiah 57:1)

Sometimes the themes of the bible seem almost schizophrenic.

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am." (Genesis 22:1)
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."(James 1:13)

Either "god" tempts men, or "he" does not. If one of these verses is true, then the other is false.

And, here's my favorite...

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." (Proverbs 26:4)
"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." (Proverbs 26:5)

The best part is that these two verses are literally right next to each other.

The bottom line is simple. Anyone who says that "the bible" is infallible, perfect, or without any internal contradiction has obviously never actually read the bible, and certainly never actually studied the material in a serious fashion. Defending the counterpoint to those assertions is almost laughably easy, and deserves nothing but ridicule from any legitimate scholar.

TTFN,
Blackout
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Quote:

if you aren't prepared to back it up...

I've addressed this in other comments.

Quote:

The best part is that these two verses are literally right next to each other.

I'd quote Chesterton again, but I'm sure you've already heard and reasonably disagree with his conclusions.

Now, about the Genesis creation stories.

This was our prime example in class concerning biblical "inconsistency." The short answer goes something like this: If you study the story telling forms of the Jews at that time, and other peoples of the time, you find they told stories in cycles. The creation chapters only read like contradictions if you read it in a linear manner. The way it was understood at the time however, the subject matter was grouped differently. Problem gone.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

blackout's picture
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Quote:

I'd quote Chesterton again, but I'm sure you've already heard and reasonably disagree with his conclusions.

Didn't you say that you didn't want this to turn into a context of "my expert can beat up your expert?" Why not just explain to us how YOU would explain this obvious contradiction?

Quote:

This was our prime example in class concerning biblical "inconsistency." The short answer goes something like this: If you study the story telling forms of the Jews at that time, and other peoples of the time, you find they told stories in cycles. The creation chapters only read like contradictions if you read it in a linear manner. The way it was understood at the time however, the subject matter was grouped differently. Problem gone.

You're equivocating. The question at hand is whether or not "the bible" is in any way inaccurate or inconsistent. Plainly, it is. If you have to turn to outside, apologetic sources to explain WHY the bible is inconsistent, you may be able to reconcile SOME of those inconsistencies, but that doesn't change the fact that the bible itself is still inconsistent. And to be frank, a vague reference to stories being told in "cycles" doesn't explain why the order of creation is different in these two accounts. And even if it did, geconciling one such error doesn't make your case. Defending an infallible text requires you to refute EVERY apparent inconsistency and falsehood. To do less leaves your position on very weak ground, intellectually speaking. OR, you could just admit that the bible contains contradictions and falsehoods. I'm okay with either option.

TTFN,
Blackout
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darwins beagle's picture
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(1) If you were to read and actually try to understand what I have given you it would be a major investment in time and money. I don't expect that. I just hope you read enough to get an understanding that what you have been told is not the state of knowledge on the subject.

(2) It is not my main objection to offend you. But if I do, that is fine too. I am not going to go out of my way NOT to offend your religious beliefs. I think religion unlike ANY OTHER AREA of knowledge seems to think that it is due some type of unearned respect. If someone comes to me and says he believes there are fairies living in my garden and is unable to provide any credible evidence of that, I am not honor bound to give that belief any respect what-so-ever. Yet someone coming to me and saying that they believe a hugely powerful being lives in an unseen and unseeable world has ultimate control over everybody's life, but is unable to provide any credible evidence of it, for some reason I am supposed to politely say, "Yes, that is reasonable to believe."

Sorry, but until proven reasonable ... it is simply a ridiculous belief deserving the ridicule it gets.

Furthermore, I find that people who believe that are often rude-assed motherf--rs themselves. For instance, let me quote from a blog:

Quote:

... It's addressed to sketpics and atheists (ie, most of my friends,) asking them to re-evaluate the knee-jerk assumption that Christianity is irrational and totally useless.

Here this Christian apologist is dismissing sketics and atheists' objections as "knee-jerk assumption[s]". Is he taking their arguments seriously. Nope ... what a rude-assed motherf--r. I certainly found that offensive.

(3) Concerning biblical contradictions:

I have a pretty easy job of it. I don't have to show that every single purported contradiction in the bible is a real contradiction. I'm not claiming that the bible is totally false. My claim is that it is flawed to the point that it is not reasonable to claim that it is a message from an omnimax God. If it were an that there should be no mistake what-so-ever in it. It is YOUR problem to show that either (A) NONE of the purported contradictions are real contradictions, or (B) there are perfectly fine reasons that an omnimax God would allow his perfect message to us to become so corrupted.

(4) When you say:

tVoR wrote:

One of the major purposes of a Christian apologist is to convert people to the faith. They, too, ask questions of evaluation, such as, "Where is God in your life?" But that is also not the question I want to ask.

You ARE most certainly likening yourself to a Christian apologist. I have no problems with it, but don't go around denying that you are.

(5) Nobody is asking you to "accept" any argument. All one is asking is for you to actually look at it. You are free to accept or reject. If you reject it based on reason and can justify it, then I will congratulate you ... you will have done something no other theist I have ever heard or read has done. I have rejected their arguments, and I am quite satisfied with the reasoning behind it. That includes your paraphrase of Chesterton's argument.

I can't tell you the number of times theists have proudly proclaimed to me that they have had their faith tested. When I try to get them to explain exactly what they mean by that, they usually tell me the story of something that happened to them or a loved one that was grossly unfair. How could a loving God allow that to happen? OK, that's doubt. But what did they do with that doubt? They dismissed it!! They came to the conclusion that God acts in mysterious ways and MUST have had a reason for allowing it to happen. Their test of faith boiled down to the question: "Can I overlook this evidence?" To pass the test, they have to answer, "Yes".

To say, "Faith always leaves room for doubt in a God" is disingenuous at the very least. Faith requires you to dismiss that doubt.

(6) As for "militant" atheism: Two things:

In reality we are just people who think your idea concerning God is ridiculous and don't mind pointing it out to you. In general, we do a pretty good job of telling you just what we find ridiculous about it. Our experience is that instead of listening to our argument, you are likely to dismiss them as "knee-jerk" reactions. Or "poor scholarship" because we don't know of supposedly sophisticated arguments in favor of God's existence (strange how nobody is able to actually explain the "sophisticated" arguments in any terms that don't make them sound totally ridiculous especially given what we know of the universe today).

I am one of the more vocal atheists you will find. But all I am asking is give me your evidence. I'll listen, but don't be too surprised if I don't seem to think your argument is as brilliant as you do. Don't be too upset if I tell you exactly where in my opinion you have fallen off the track of rationality.

Cheers,

DB

===
If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

Quote:

what you have been told

"What I have been told" is, hey, there's lots of debate, here's a few Christian responses.

Quote:

If you were to read and actually try to understand what I have given you it would be a major investment in time and money. I don't expect that

I did. Unless distracted by other, more important things, or I just don't care, I see no reason to let my beliefs boil down to a "well my expert can beat up your expert" argument. Investigation must naturally follow.

Quote:

I am not going to go out of my way NOT to offend your religious beliefs.

Never expected you not to. I saw what was being said as starting to cross a line between idea-attacking and person-attacking. I've done my best to remain polite and distant, because I've seen similar discussions turn nasty, and I didn't want this one to descend to that level.

Quote:

Sorry, but until proven reasonable ... it is simply a ridiculous belief deserving the ridicule it gets.

The comments posted insisting I prove the existence of God before anything else missed the point of the blog. You can attack ideas about Christian ethics without mentioning the existence of God at all. If I sound out of my depth in these comments, it's because my blog was focused on a different thing entirely. A premise I never mentioned, and in fact explicitly set aside, and a single summary paragraph about the Bible have become the entirely contentions for my post being unreasonable. That's kind of the essence of missing the point.

I'm sorry you took offense at my introductory comment. If you'd met the people I was referencing, you'd understand it was not a slight, but a statement of fact. A whole one of them has any reasons for rejecting Christianity. I don't agree with his reasons, but I respect that they're there. Most of the people I have met, the ones I had in mind when writing this essay to begin with, have less reason and logic behind their ideas than you claim Christians do. That's why the blog was about social prejudice, not archaeological evidence. The comment wasn't aimed at you. If I'd thought it would be taken that way, I would have somehow been more explicit.

The passage you quoted of me likening myself to a Christian apologist I wrote specifically not calling myself an apologist, referencing them as a separate group of people. If I am an apologist, it is only in the sense the essay was meant to deal with: people have a hatred of Christianity that goes beyond their reasons for rejecting it. That is unfounded prejudice, and that is what I wanted to argue agains. I don't want to associate myself with apologist because they tend to unconditionally defend the Church, and I do not. Because of all the negative press that goes with them, like say t.v. evangelists. I am about as far from that as you can get.

Quote:

My claim is that it is flawed to the point that it is not reasonable to claim that it is a message from an omnimax God.

In which case you still need to show a significant number of contradictions and other inaccuracies. Also, that means as far as biblical historicity goes, we're going about two different goals. You want to prove its historically inaccurate to prove God didn't write it, but it was never my intention to defend to that idea.

Quote:

Their test of faith boiled down to the question: "Can I overlook this evidence?" To pass the test, they have to answer, "Yes".

Why does it bother you so much that people have faith? If something catastrophic happens in their lives, and they want to believe God had a reason because it enables them to deal and move on, what's wrong with that? Essentially, "evidence" of what? Suppose they have evaluated the "problem of pain" as C.S. Lewis called it and decided the arguments for God's existence in the face of evil are more reasonable than the opposing ones. Just because they can't figure out all the tangled threads of their particular catastrophe and how God applies in that case doesn't mean they should give up on the rational reasons they accepted in the first place.

Quote:

Faith requires you to dismiss that doubt.

This is simple rejection of Chesterton's argument without providing reasons for it.

Concerning the cartoon: Your point is?
So some people think the two are incompatible; I don't. Lots of people don't.

The video: I don't have a problem with vocal atheists or the fact that you are one. What I have a problem with is when said people presume out of hand that all contrary arguments are going to fail, as you do in the conclusion of your comment. I listened to the video. The poster would have fun with my philosophy professors. Many of them are believers, and they're all extremely logical about it.

If all you wanted was my evidence, you wouldn't also insist on the inherent ridiculousness of believing in God. You can call an argument illogical or ridiculous, but to state out of hand that a premise is that kind of stupid is a kind of prejudice, which flies in the face of your claimed open-mindedness to reason.

You've read all the opposing literature. How much of the good stuff for it have you actually genuinely encountered?

I give every argument a chance. I'm open to being convinced otherwise, because otherwise there's no point. Can you say the same?

What I haven't seen here is a solid reason that is free from the "it's stupid because it's not empirical" prejudice, the out-of-hand "well it's dumb because..." 'argument' that isn't based in reasonable arguments. Which was, of course, the original point of my essay.

--
"Let's eat Mama!" or "Let's eat, Mama!"
Punctuation: It Saves Lives.

darwins beagle's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I had written you a long point-by-point rebuttal. It contained a lot of good stuff, but due to a computer glitch I lost it. I don't feel like going through it again so I'll address just this one point:

You seem to imply that atheists of my ilk are not open-minded. A lot of Christian apologists take comfort in that conclusion. I don't think it is warrented, however.

I DO expect your argument to fail. I will be flabbergasted if you succeed in producing a rational argument for God's existence. But that expectation arises not from close-mindedness. It arises from experience. Somewhere in your reply above you ask if I have read all the opposing material. The answer is NO!! But I have read a lot.

I have read Origen, Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Paley, Lewis, Swinburne, Plantinga, Craig, Kreeeft, McGrath, and others that have a reputation for being among the best. I have been singularly unimpressed. I have read the evangelicals (not considered to be among the best) McDowell, Strobel, Holding, et al. I have been appalled. I have had on-line and in-person discussion with numerous Christians. I have not heard a new argument in a LONG LONG time.

You ask me how much of the "good stuff" I have read. So far, according to my evaluation NONE of it has been good. Or at least good given what we know now. I do have some respect for Augustine, Aquinas, and Paley if I judge their arguments from what was known at the time they were written. But their arguments have not withstood the test of time.

So ... YES, I fully expect you to present an argument that is going to be very easy to dismiss. But I always COULD be wrong. Perhaps you will succeed where other more prominent writers have failed. Give it your best shot. I'll read it and I'll respond. I'll respond. If I ridicule it, I promise to give you REASONS why it is worthy of ridicule.

For instance, you respond to blackout below with this:

tVoR wrote:

Now, about the Genesis creation stories.

This was our prime example in class concerning biblical "inconsistency." The short answer goes something like this: If you study the story telling forms of the Jews at that time, and other peoples of the time, you find they told stories in cycles. The creation chapters only read like contradictions if you read it in a linear manner. The way it was understood at the time however, the subject matter was grouped differently. Problem gone.

I would highly recommend you don't argue like this. It is ridiculous. You are saying that "evening and morning, the first day" actually means a cycle. A cycle of what exactly?? What would the bible have had to say for "evening and morning" to mean a 24 hour day (like what it seems to mean to anybody past, present or future who actually reads the phrase in isolation)? How does viewing the story as being written from a "cyclic" point of view solve any problem?

You didn't explain anything here. Going from my past experience I'm going to guess what you meant is the idea that on Days 1, 2, and 3 God creates the heaven (day 1) the seas and the sky (day 2), and the solid earth (day 3). Then on days 4, 5, and 6 he populates the areas he had created; day 4 -- the heavens with the sun, moon and stars; day 5 -- the fish of the oceans and the birds of the air; day 6 -- the solid earth with the creatures that walk and humans.

IF that is what you meant, you STILL have severe problems. That's not the way the universe, the earth, or life came into being. If God had wanted to give humanity a picture of how all that happened then telling the story as Genesis does is a piss-poor way of doing it.

In fact, no matter how you choose to read it, it is a piss-poor way of doing it as evidenced by the fact that for most of recorded history we have gotten it wrong based upon that story.

Don't just accept your professor's statement that the problem is solved by reading it differently, THINK ABOUT IT. Does it really solve the problem? How so? If you can't explain exactly how it solves the problem then perhaps it doesn't really solve the problem at all.

Cheers,

DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France

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