Yikes, touchy subject right? This issue is on the minds of millions. But this is essentially the response that Miss America first runner-up California's Carrie Prejean gave last night on the Miss America Pageant contest. Infamous online celebrity gossiper, and totally gay dude Perez Hilton asked Prejean the tough question. (I felt sorry for the girl when she got it. I mean Miss Arizona had to answer a question about how she got her childhood nickname- lame.) Hilton was obviously not excited by her answer. Though it was neck in neck all night between the top two, Miss North Carolina's Kristen Dalton (gorgeous blue gown btw) won the title. So did that question cause the title for California? And would that be 'just'?
Its funny that Prejean is from California because I tend to think of Cali as a liberal, (somewhat hedonistic), live and let live, anything goes sort of atmosphere, though of course you get all types everywhere... (I mean I don't think fiery Miss Utah was Mormon but I don't know...)
There is never going to be a time where everyone in the country supports marriage equality. There's never going to be a time where we all agree on everything. Keeping that in mind, should Perez Hilton 'hold that against' Prejean? Can a Miss America who doesn't support marriage equality accurately represent this increasingly diverse nation?
I too was brought up with a religious background that doesn't support gay lifestyle. That shouldn't be a big surprise, I dont think most people are. However, I was also brought up not to pass judgment on people. You can still like people and recognize that people are good people without agreeing with everything they do, basically. I also happen to be pretty liberal. And I think that politics and laws are not currently governed by religious morals (beautiful wicked world).... so therefore, its not just (by law/politics/etc) to have unequal marriage rights, en mon avis...
I say all that to say, thought I dont agree with Prejean 'per se' it had to be pretty difficult for her to answer Hilton as she did. And there's a lot to be said for standing your ground. I'm proud of that in her, and I'd like to be proud of Miss America.
First, she really got a raw deal if the other questions were so UNpolitical. There really should be more balance in the questions.
Second, if you have to (or if one has to--I don't mean you, mai) preface what you say with "no offense," you pretty much guarantee that it will be offensive. I hate that!
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
if you have to... preface what you say with "no offense," you pretty much guarantee that it will be offensive. I hate that!
So do I, its a disclaimer.
I also didnt appreciate (and was kind of wounded, surprised and offended) when she said 'In my country' then she said 'In my family'** which is better i guess... but 'in my country we dont want equal marriage rights', suggests that in other countries 'i dont care what you do' but in America, no! I dont know, i havent fully figured out why i had this visceral reaction to that... But I just listened to it on you tube, and Hilton DID in fact ask Prejean her opinion on that matter. Hilton asked, "Vermont recently became the fourth state to legalize same-sex marriage. Do you think every state should follow suit? Why or why not?" She was obviously nervous because she said she thought it was great that Americans can choose, but then she said in her country (an obvious slip) she believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman. She also said "i think.. i think" obviously tongue tied, and last but not least she said "same sex marriage or OPPOSITE marriage" well that's just weird...
I enjoyed watching the pageant off and on, the ladies are pretty but they all look alike, which is a bummer... Their bodies even look the same, I'm telling you if you dont look at their faces its hard to tell them apart. I did however appreciate the natural breasts that Minnesota had... I know there is a plus-sized Miss America pageant, but I doubt its much publicized which sucks cuz I'd love to see that.
This pageant is ICONIC, not only do little girls look up to these women, adult women are also interested in seeing where these women are and at what point in their lives. I'm interested in what they do with their year of celebrity, it didnt SEEM like the last one (who was beautiful and kind of looked like a mature Rhianna) did much unfortunately. That may not be the case, but if not they should have highlighted that during the program and not her overcoming her fear of heights and getting a scholarship to film school...
I think pageants get a bad rap. I look at shows like Toddlers and Tiaras on TLC and such, and I think 'awww if I had a lil girl, I would love for her to have the opportunity to experience this.' Its not anti women's lib it's not anti feminist, and if you are beautiful you can still be extremely brainy, anyone who would suggest otherwise is a disgusting, sexist, pig who is light-years behind the times. Of course there are fanatical people in every aspect of life, but if handled appropriately pageantry could be a great experience for women of various ages.
**apparently her sister and her mother don't share her views? Or at least her "beliefs have nothing to do" with them... ummm... weird again (this article has more on that):
http://omg.yahoo.com/news/miss-california-my-sister-is-a-gay-rights-acti...
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http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/mai
Peace & Blessings
Mai said,
"I also didnt appreciate (and was kind of wounded, surprised and offended) when she said 'In my country' then she said 'In my family'** which is better i guess... but 'in my country we dont want equal marriage rights', suggests that in other countries 'i dont care what you do' but in America, no!"
I appreciate this sentiment. Good attention to detail, and careful, thoughtful analysis.
Mai said,
"This pageant is ICONIC, not only do little girls look up to these women, adult women are also interested in seeing where these women are and at what point in their lives. I'm interested in what they do with their year of celebrity, it didnt SEEM like the last one (who was beautiful and kind of looked like a mature Rhianna) did much unfortunately."
Really? Then how come you didn't mention "the last one's" name? I could be totally wrong since I don't follow these things at all, but my guess is that these women are cycled on annual basis, and very few people actually bother to follow the lives of any one of them, except for Vanessa Williams, of course, who made her way to fame "legitimately."
Mai said,
"I look at shows like Toddlers and Tiaras on TLC and such, and I think 'awww if I had a lil girl, I would love for her to have the opportunity to experience this.'"
I look at shows like that and think of Jon Benet Ramsey and pedophiles, and think, "There is no way on this green earth I would ever encourage my daughter's participation in something like that." For Elia, it will be karate, drums and soccer. All things she has already decided on her own that she loves, at 3 years old. Prolly 'cause of her older boy cousin, but I totally approve.
Also, I must insert my opinion about mothers who encourage and promote their daughter's early activity in such competitions.
It is my opinion that mothers who encourage and advance their daughters in such competitions are simply treating their baby girls as baby dolls and have not grown out of the stage of playing dolls.
What toddler asks to be involved in such antics? It is not the child, but the mother or guardian that brings the child into such activities. These women need to grow up and need to realize that baby girls are more than dolls asking to be dressed up.
Mai said,
"if you are beautiful you can still be extremely brainy, anyone who would suggest otherwise is a disgusting, sexist, pig who is light-years behind the times. Of course there are fanatical people in every aspect of life, but if handled appropriately pageantry could be a great experience for women of various ages."
Of course women can be beautiful and "brainy," anyone who suggests otherwise is ignorant.
I would add though, that people who value and promote beauty above all other attributes, making intelligence, creativity and critical thinking less important and noteworthy than beauty, as pageants like these always do, are behind the times, not by light years, but by decades.
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I dont think not remembering any of the contestants names is significant (the pageant as a whole is the star). The general public who is not involved or aspire to be involved with the production of the pageant dont think about the Miss USA pageant (mai included) unless its on the tube. When its on the tube, among the things I attempt to catch is the recap on the exiting crown holder. In years past, I have seen that some women have done great things, 'the last one' Crystal Stewart, her short segment didnt show the wonderful things she did IF she did any...
I appreciate pageantry. When an Asian, Latina, African, etc woman wins their community feels pride because the standard for beauty in this country has continue to exclude many of them. That's power, pride, and encouragement. I also like seeing our the image of beauty has changed in America over the decades. Its iconic ('beauty queen'), its been going on since 1952... and pageantry prolly longer. Today those that won in the 50s and 60s wouldn't be considered 'drop dead gorgeous'. When an openly lesbian women wins, I'm sure it has a similar effect. The women individually serve to make the greater whole. The pageant itself is the real star. There's a platform for beautiful, educated, ambitious, motivated women to be spotlighted. The pageant is like Sarah Palin in that they help to shape the idea of women in America good and bad.
she is one more woman sculpting the national, political view. One more woman to crack a ceiling. One more woman to add to the face of women in politics. She has shaped an idea of what women can be in American politics, at this point, for good or bad isn't that important.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/51375-happy-women039s-history-month-365...
Sarah Palin is beneficial and significant to Women's History, and her pageant history is part of that conglomerate.
I dont see Toddlers and Tiaras as being much different than ballet class, violin lessons, or touch football. Fanatical stage moms and dads can be found anywhere. And creative parents, as I feel I will be, will know what limitations to set on appearance. I have a vision of children competing and looking like children. It's in the hands of individual parents and the personality of their child.
As far as this pageant upholding or weighing beauty more than the other attributes, yeah it does. but that doesn't diminish us. MEAT AUCTION? well, ok, but we live in a world where SEX is important and powerful. Not acknowledging it's place in our world is kind of like not acknowledging 'female wiles' or the sensuality of the menstrual cycle and all things feminine. We just aren't only that. And that's why we have other things in our world to keep our view and view of us well rounded. Fore every Prejean, Dalton, and Stewart, we have a Curie, McLeod Bethune, and Montalcini. It's up to women FIRST to spotlight ourselves on our less aesthetic attributes.
Miss America is great for feminism. Because it reiterates the point that women didnt /dont LOOSE anything in the fight for equality. We only gain. We've always been beautiful, trophies, mothers, wives, homemakers (dayum right we ain't giving that up!!) but we are also architects, coaches, longshoremen, truckers, surgeons, naturopaths, (and all those other seemingly masculine titles) AND we deserve to get paid the same for doing it, and we deserve to not be regarded as stupid for beauty, or lecherous for promiscuity (these latter things are some of the fights we are STILL working on)
Each individual WOMAN can decide for herself what brings out the best in her.
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http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/mai
Peace & Blessings
You cover a lot of ground. A lot of what you said here pushes my buttons, and that is okay, I still value your opinion, and see some of your points. Thanks for sharing "the last one's name," that m...
I am irritated that I still can't figure out how to post youtube videos without screwing everything up. Anyway, here is the link to a hockey mom's response to Sarah Palin that echoes my exact sentiments, but in a very cute an innocent way compared to my own acrid and noxious feelings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9BmNuqeiQ
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Is second that .... There is no way on this God's green earth I would ever encourage my daughter's in any way to participate in something like that. For Mine, it will be karate, drums and soccer. WIth my luck though she just might WANT to do it, in which case I will bawl hysterically all the way with her with a shotgun and pepper spray in the trunk.
There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic.~- Anais Nin
Victory and Elia playing soccer wearing tiaras and tutus until they get bored and break out the swords, then the drumsticks! I can't keep her clothes pink, they come home from school covered in mud from playing "monster" with the boys. She does love to dress up, but then its straight to the park for this kid, no sitting around playing with dolls, except for her "babies" which she pushes around in the stroller, feeding leaves and bugs to. Girls are so much fun!
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by swords you mean the armed and dangerous water hoses and the sand box... My oldest will have to learn to run fast ... real fast ;-D
There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic.~- Anais Nin
Elia plays with swords, of course they are plastic, but she thinks she is a pirate.
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HAha... It will be the hose or a light saber made from some random stick found laying around....Becareful those girls are dangerous!
Ooo maybe we can have a new beauty contest called the Spirit awards were kids come as them selves in all vibrance and naturality (I DO NOT mean naked) in an effort to promote personality, perseverence and something else that begins with P that means smarts...Oh I know its right in front of me~ Progressivness ;-)
There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic.~- Anais Nin
since you bothered to rule in CAPS, "I DO NOT MEAN NAKED."
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I sure do!
There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic.~- Anais Nin
there is a flamenco school in downtown Santa Ana. The woman teaches classes from 3 years old up and recruits students for her international dance team.
I am going to sign up for "mommy and me" classes next week. They aren't cheap, though, and neither is karate :(. Still, I think its worth it.
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She asserts that her answer did cost her the crown, but that she wouldn't have it any other way:
But, she did not preamble this non-answer with "No offense, but..." which would indicate a much more insidious answer, as described by Ediblewoman. Her answer started with
She gave her honest opinion, and although I don't agree with her, I applaud her for that. The problem, however, was that her opinion did not answer the question - only caused controversy as to whether or not she would / should win.
The "no offense" came toward the end of her statement, along with "that's how I was raised," which - to me - is only a clarification... not nearly as insidious as you've portrayed here.
Also, to clarify, 4 out of 5 of the questions were political (Found in the same article as linked above):
North Carolina - Tax payer money towards bailout. She answered the question.
Arizona - Universal Healthcare. She goes on some rant about integrity and never answers the question at all.
Utah - US Sending money to Afgahnistan - should we support even though we are in a recession. She answered the question.
Kentucky - Domestic Violence re:Chris Brown, Rihanna. She answers the question (the ONLY non-political question in the group).
Miss California, however, did not answer the question.
1) She clearly did not know what she was talking about. She said "we live in a land where we can choose" but not everyone has that choice.
2) Her answer was not all that articulate; and although that could be coughed up to nervousness - as part of this pageant you need to be able to speak clearly in public... the answers to these questions have always been a major part of the competition.
3) She wasn't asked for her opinion. She was asked whether or not people should be offered this right. Her opinion has no bearing on the question. If she really felt the need to include her opinion, that's fine - but she should have actually answered the question.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
Thanks for the clarification on the other questions. I guess she didn't get a raw deal at all, then, did she?
And I watched the clip after I commented (prolly should have watched the clip first). I still think that saying "no offense" is a weak thing to say, regardless of where it is placed. I agree that she didn't really answer the question. She seems to think we have a whole bunch of rights we don't have.
"Never go with a hippy to a second location."
~Jack Donaghy
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I do agree that it's a weak statement to make regardless. But I find that there's a large difference between using it as a preamble and using it as a clarification after the fact.
Although - the better route would have been to leave that statement out completely, since she was also not asked about how she was raised.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
so I'm only going off what has been said here.
She was asked whether or not people should be offered this right.
Technically speaking, that is a question of opinion. Someone who believes homosexuality isn't right will most likely believe that they shouldn't be offered the right to marry (just like incestuous relationships aren't offered the right to marry). On the other hand, someone who believes it's not wrong will most likely believe that they should be offered the right to marry.
Even taking a purely political stance (a la Blackout) opens up a whole can of worms about other types of relationships. I would also venture to guess that the question was the most polarizing question presented (yes, even more so than the bailout question).
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
Someone who believes homosexuality isn't right will most likely believe that they shouldn't be offered the right to marry (just like incestuous relationships aren't offered the right to marry).
Perhaps; I can definitely see where you're coming from. But there is still a distinct difference. I know hundreds of people who don't believe Abortion is right, and yet would vote to keep it legal because they also believe they shouldn't tell other people how to live their lives.
Basically, it comes down to whether or not you believe that your opinion should be law... or whether your opinion should supercede others.
And regarding incestuous marriage...
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
So...would someone please tell me WHY anyone even CARES what the contestants in a beauty pageant have to say about same-sex marraige, or for that matter ANY political issue? I mean, its not like they're in the contest because of their big brains.
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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if they did win, give them any power whatsoever to make any decisions related to politics.
I think they ask them these questions just to weed out the ones that are stupid, in order to soften the blatant display and selection of prime human female specimens.
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Regardless of the opinion you have of these women, they're generally well educated (many of them are in college, or already have degrees), and do serve as role models to young girls. Whether you agree with this or not, their opinions do matter on some level, just as the opinions of celebrities matter; celebrities aren't going to write the laws that will go into effect in this country, but they can influence popular opinion.
~C
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[video removed due to technical glitches]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww&e
I'm sorry...I couldn't help myself.
Seriously, though...Carrie Prejean is not a college graduate. She is currently attending a small christian college in San Deigo that was formed to promote biblical creationism in higher education...go figure.
I really think it is a SHAME that these are the women that young girls are encouraged to look up to. Whether an individual contestant in this kind of contest is intelligent or not is subsumed by the gross sublimation of those qualities beneath the idea that physical beauty is a quality by which women should be judged. It is patriarchal and promotes a shallowness both among women and among the men who subsequently view them.
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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Blackout I laugh hysterically every time I see that video and I couldn't agree more that perhaps people like her are not the best role models for girls. I think this video gets funnier every time I watch it! Although one must admit that not having a map is a valid explanation for not being able to locate anything on it! This is a good example of the cliche "truth is stranger than fiction" because her nonsensical ramble could never have been scripted for a comedy show. This video is a classic worth preserving for generations to come!
EVERYBODY, keep in mind this map answer (admittedly notable and favorite moment in pageant history) is given by a teen during the Teen Miss America pageant. And as far as Miss USA contestants generally being well educated and collegiate, Teens are not generally college educated. True...
Prejean is a COLLEGE junior at San Diego Christian College and the winner of Miss USA (sorry i've been saying Miss America) Honors College Psychology and Spanish major at East Carolina University. Neither educations are anything to *scoff* or *snort* at.
And as far as girls (women in general) looking up to these beauty queens, there are many admirable qualities in these women and competing in this pageantry is one of them. Women are not diminished by all the things we are, we are enhanced. We are multi-faceted. And those who degrade any of our facets are all so women suppressors. Dont think that isn't the case. Youth need a well-rounded pool of role models. If they only look to Prejean or Dalton, NOT GOOD, if they only look to Sarah Palin (I think pageants worked out for her!) NOT GOOD, if they only look to Oprah, or M. Obama, or H. Clinton, NOT GOOD they need to look to several! You aren't helping women by limiting us!
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http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/mai
Peace & Blessings
...and guess what? She can't handle policy questions any better than our Miss Teen USA candidate did, above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nokTjEdaUGg
Let's face it, these contests do NOT bring out the best in women.
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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but as a woman, I wring my head in my hands
I heard her on the radio during her debate with Joe Biden. I have to say, he was such a gentleman!
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I certainly didn't say all of them were smart, just that in general, they are in college or college graduates. I say this because a good friend of mine from middle school, a very smart friend of mine from middle school, competes in beauty pageants. With her title, she is required to do a certain amount of community service and events. She's certainly someone I look up to, even though she's my age.
Pageantry all depends on how you look at it. If you see it merely as a showcase of women's bodies, then yes, it is demeaning. But the judging criteria are things that all women should have: self confidence, poise, the ability to communicate, etc. In some competitions, talent is also required. So, the contestants cannot win on beauty alone.
~C
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Technically, the Miss USA system only uses three criteria for judging contesting...the Interview, Fitness and Beauty, and Evening Gowns. In the Miss America system, they are a bit more diverse, and judge on Talent, Evening Wear, Lifestyle and Fitness in Swimsuit, a Private Interview and On-stage Question(s). I couldn't find the weighting for Miss USA, but in Miss America the On-stage Question only counts for 5% of the contestant's score.
In my opinion, it is complete crap to suggest that these women are really being judged on any kind of well-rounded criteria. Even if we accept that the non-physical categories are not just a sham which was introduced to make the contests SEEM a little less like a meat auction, the number of categories and weighting percentages clearly indicated that physical beauty is the primary quality needed to win these competitions. A more anecdotal response but no less telling in this case would be to ask a simply question...
Has there EVER been a winner of a major Miss USA or Miss America pageant who was NOT "drop-dead gorgeous?" If physical beauty was not an overriding consideration in these competitions, one would think that you could find at least ONE winner who did not conform to the stereotypical vision of a "beauty queen."
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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So, what are you saying... that because they're judged more on beauty it's a sham and its participants should be discounted?
I used to think that way; Then my baby sister turnd 5 and her mother wanted to enter her in a pageant. I argued about how demeaning it was and how it's all based on personal opinion of who's the prettiest etc. But, Irene took her to her first pageant anyway.
Two months later, Irene took my little sister to another pageant... then another. Over the course of 8 years, my little sister participated in close to 20 pageants (between here and in Minnesota, where our dad is originally from). And I saw a change in her that was truly great.
You could watch her grace grow with her; she went from timid to outspoken, her public speaking skills and people skills are better than most adults I know, she takes direction well, she's calm under pressure, she's a good sport regardless of winning or losing (she takes losing better than many of the members here) and very supportive. And before deciding to quit pageantry it was her primary motivator to get good grades in school. I know that a lot of these characteristics she has now because of the pageants she attended.
Considering what these women go through to get the chance to compete for a national title, why would they not be good role models?
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
So, what are you saying... that because they're judged more on beauty it's a sham and its participants should be discounted?
Not at all. I think that it is a sham to suggest that anything other than physical appearaance and other similarly shallow qualities plays any signficant role in who wins in these contests, especially at the national level.
As for "discounting the participants," I think that we SHOULD discount opinons offered by people who are poorly qualified to offer serious opinions on issues of public policy. That doesn't automatically preclude a beauty queen or any other icon of pop culture, but when that person is obviously biased, poorly informed or inarticulate, then I can only wonder WHY some people are so obsessed with what these people think (if in fact they think at all before thet speak).
As for whether or not these pageants are "good" for your little sister, they MIGHT be...but research indicates that this is unlikely.
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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I can understand everything Kendrick wrote there; and some of these ideas I can agree with. But... I do not agree with blaming the media for most of these issues. I think the media makes for an easy scapegoat and I think it's lazy to blame them.
As far as his other concerns, again, I understand them. But I would be much more interested in hearing from women; preferably from women who participated in such pageants. Take, for instance, Delta Burke. She participated in these pageants and made it through to the 1974 Miss America Pageant. She lost the pageant (I don't think she even made the top ten) but has no regrets regarding the pageantry, the methodologies, or the system. She won scholarships to attend the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. Now she manufactures and markets a line of plus size clothing and has a best-selling autobiography on the shelves.
Of course, this doesn't mean that every one who makes it to the Miss America pageant does as well... but that's the case with everything.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
with Vanessa Williams. hell, just 5 minutes on you tube should suffice!
Seriously though, I am going to respond to your other comments as well, because i am too lazy to post to each one individually, especially my latest you tube screw up.
I don't think that it is wrong to spotlight young girls and women who make a difference in their communities.
I am facing a personal dilemma that encompasses these issues fairly completely. Aside from my personal conflicts, I have one related to my daughter. She is beautiful, absolutely adorable, and very animated. She has blonde curly hair, and loves to dance. I could make into a Shirley Temple remake if I wanted. In fact, I took her to flashcast in Hollywood when she was 3 months old. They loved her, and gave us a talent agent. My obligation is to post new pics of her every 3 months. She can get print ads or tv commercials. Print ads pay about $200/ hour, and commercials up to $100,000 at signing, along with residuals every time they are aired. The money would go to her college fund, or 529 account.
I have been lazy, and have only updated her photos twice in the past 3 years. People have expressed interest, and I just haven't been on the ball.
Some would shake their head at me and think I have cheated her of something she deserves. That may be. At the same time, neither my husband or myself are so free with our time that we can drop everything and meet the demands of these people. (A call at 6 am to alert you to be in LA at 7 for an audition.) Also, I have taken up going back to school, so when pressures build up, marketing my daughter takes the back burner.
Part of my concern is that she would become all f***ed up a la the Olsen twins. I don't want my daughter to have to deal with such rigorous standards around her body and appearance. For the same reason I have not taken my ex Olympian contestant ice skating friend up on ice skating lessons. I want my daughter to have the freedom to choose her path, and to enjoy every minute of the search, without having to conform to someone else's standards of success.
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...tells me that Delta Burke is awesome. But the rest of me wonders if her pageant experience had anything to do with her weight issues, clinical depression and compulsive hoarding syndrome (link). If that tabloids are to be believed, Mrs. Burke is not actually a pleasant person to work with, being something of a diva. And while two years in an overseas arts and music program is cool, I would expect that this is a common outcome for the vast majority of pageant contestants.
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
It is patriarchal and promotes a shallowness both among women and among the men who subsequently view them.
I don't know this for a fact but I get the impression that the gay men are disproportionately involved in many aspects of the entire beauty pagent industry.
It seems ironic that they in particular would be involved in something so patriarchal.
..to back up that assumption, but the anecdotal stereotype is certainly prevalent. Of course, being gay doesn't automatically make one politically or philosophically savvy, and the LBGT community is certainly just as prone to swim in the shallow end of the curtural pool as our straight friends.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I've never really thought about it before. I have known many gay men who get all excited about stuff like this. And there is the stereotype of gay men being highly concentrated in the fashion industry. Many fashion designers are openly gay men.
On the flip side, there is a lack of representation of gay women in such industries. Now I know that this doesn't mean there aren't gay women in the industry, and I remind myself that even ediblewoman was a model at one time. I haven't read enough of her blogs to know whether or not she was an "openly gay" at the time. Maybe she will enlighten us here, if she reads this.
Still, I find it interesting that something that is supposed to celebrate women and diversity does not seem to be a place that welcomes female homosexuality. I could be wrong, but with the lack of counterexamples we have already seen, I doubt it.
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I don't know this for a fact but I get the impression that the gay men are disproportionately involved in many aspects of the entire beauty pagent industry.
This part of your comment brought to mind, that I generally assume that gay men are usually involved in any and all facets of the beauty industry. I realize this is an assumption, and gross generalization about probability. But when I think about what goes into a production involving making women 'beautiful' I think there's gonna be some gays around, increasing the fabulosity... It's an assumption akin to assuming that any major theatre company in NOHO, CA is going to have some gays in the company... on that I know is accurate.
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http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/mai
Peace & Blessings
Anybody can be sexist.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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who have to be paraded in bathing suits before ever being given a microphone. I am sure most little girls can too. I would rather have my daughter look up to Eve Ensler than any of these "icons."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HFY1s2g070
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I don't tend to watch Miss America pageants lol so I guess that's a good thing.
I think it's funny that her statement was about choice, when not allowing gay marriage is not allowing Americans choice, which is why I take issue with it.
I am not quite sure about how I feel about homosexuality(in terms of God's will) but I do not it's not my place to say. We live in a country that build temples to greed, lust, and gluttony everyday. We make a mockery of marriage and love all the time. The idea that we are trying to "protect" marriage by denying people their God given right to choose is absurd. We have constantly co-signed God to our own agendas and that is the real wrong here, not Gay marriage.
What two consenting adults decide for their lives is not my business. As a Christian I do believe that God gave them the right to choose that for themselves and that it is not my place to judge or worry about it. It does not change my neighbors marriage does not change my marriage. If we as Christians focused more on honoring God with our own lives and less on imposing on others, we would be doing so much more to further the Body of Christ.
As for her comments. I think it's sad that we can't have descent discussions. I may not agree with her statement, but I think she should've said it if it were true, and there is a respectful but genuine way to discuss a different point of view. In this P.C. era we are so big on punishing people for statements that we encourage each other to lie or hide these feelings, and we will never deal with them if we don't face them. I know that "No Offense" seems weak but I believe her, she didn't say it to offend. So I'm not mad at her.
Mai , I like that you explored this. I think for the most part your blogs help to establish a very good exchange of ideas. I appreciate you sister.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
I know that "No Offense" seems weak but I believe her, she didn't say it to offend. So I'm not mad at her.
You know what? I also take her at her word that she didnt intend to be offensive, but she knew this would be offensive. So she should have omitted that part all together. It's becoming more and more apparent to me that her stance didnt hurt her chances of obtaining the title as much as the delivery of her answer. I think if she could have thought about the wording a little longer, (or possessed an Obama-like thought to speech filter) she could have come off much more adept.
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Peace & Blessings
It's becoming more and more apparent to me that her stance didnt hurt her chances of obtaining the title as much as the delivery of her answer.
Bingo :)
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
Hilton is blurring the lines however. He is lying in the blog. He IS mad that she doesn't support gay marriage. He is fuming! Why she got to be a 'stupid bitch'? Prejean prolly only would have gotten a good mark from him if she said what he wanted: either agree with it, or that if she doesn't to say that each state should choose. But if you dont agree with it your opinion is that each state shouldn't choose.
[video removed due to technical glitch]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_QhM3TK2UE&e
I really hoped I could have found the clip of Perez saying (on Access Hollywood or ET or something), 'Her answer definatly lost her the crown'. Hilton also apologized for calling her a bitch, then retracted that apology and said he which he would have called her a cunt. Hilton seems to think that since Miss America isn't as important or political as the office of the President (Miss America is supposed to bring the country together, but the President doesn't have to, they have to support their parties platform???) that she should abandon her beliefs and values in favor of promoting a false sense of unity thru lies...
[video removed due to technical glitch]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klT0aSRTuDQ&e
Miss America is great for feminism. Because it reiterates the point that women didnt /dont LOOSE anything in the fight for equality. We only gain. We've always been beautiful, trophies, mothers, wives, homemakers (dayum right we ain't giving that up!!) but we are also architects, coaches, longshoremen, truckers, surgeons, naturopaths, (and all those other seemingly masculine titles) AND we deserve to get paid the same for doing it, and we deserve to not be regarded as stupid for beauty, or lecherous for promiscuity (these latter things are some of the fights we are STILL working on)
The above is only part of the reason why this is interesting and important. Another reason, is because this title is IMPORTANT to all those on stage. They worked hard to get their bodies how they want, to prep for answers, and to have the confidence to compete. I bet some of those ladies are overcoming image issues to perform (its when the performance causes image issues it becomes the problem). They spend lots of money on this, its an investment. So be in her stilettos, this whole ordeal wiped it away...
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Peace & Blessings
I appreciate your honesty, and that you can have your own personal religious views, yet separate that from the issue, which is equality. Nice job! As far as I remember from my childhood Bible less...
but in terms of how she can influence young minds, It does matter.
“You cannot wean away an addict from the drug. It is not possible for me to walk away from Ranjha. If it is our destiny to be together then who, other than God, can change it?”
she's a spaceman, no walker, dreamer...maybe
It is pathetic that this is considered controversy. Gay marriage was blocked in California. Much of America is against it. It is a topic of discussion in our Country at the moment. It is ignorant and childish for any one to condemn someone for standing up for there beliefs. I commend her for her strength and integrity. Just because she has a different opinion than a very loud gay minority does not make her wrong.
Personally, I do not think that standing up for a belief in bigoty and discrimination is a praisworthy stance. Would you feel the same if she had said "in my country, black people should not be allowed to marry white people...that's just the way I was raised?" Do you think that someone who did say something like that would be excused from public ridicule and condemnation? Somehow, I doubt it. When you stand up and ask people to judge you (which everyone who enters a pageant has implicitly done), then guess what? People are going to JUDGE you. I don't think that this controversy is newsworthy, because let's face it...beauty queens are not exactly the model for informed and intelligent policy discussions. But on the other hand, when someone who gains access to a widely viewed public forum decides to put their opinion out there, they get what they get when the people they are speaking to decide to respond in kind.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Would you feel the same if she had said "in my country, black people should not be allowed to marry white people...that's just the way I was raised?" Do you think that someone who did say something like that would be excused from public ridicule and condemnation?
Unfortunately, being a bigoted ass is not illegal - so long as you don't use your bigotry to directly interfere in your victim's life (i.e., job, education, pursuit of happiness).
And while I do understand that keeping this illegal *is* interfering with the LGTBs' pursuit of happiness, this person is not *directly* interfering in that by stating her bigoted opinion.
And of course making the same statement about a person's race or other such identifier would be met with the same ridicule this has been met with. Just as in this case, we would look, point our fingers, and laugh. But we also know that the bigoted moron making that statement would not be *directly* interfering with those rights, which makes it (somewhat) easier for us to laugh.
To clarify for those of you who are going to come at me saying something along the lines of "but by voting in..." and yada yada... I said *directly* - meaning they are not the end-all be-all person with the power to hold this as illegal wrapped up in their little hands. Of course I know voters and yada yada...political system... and all that. But I am not referring to the indirect, round-about methods of getting these stupid laws repealed... I am talking about the power to abolish or uphold these laws lying in a moron's hands without the round-about system.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
I still really want to know.... Has there ever been a contestant of such a pageant that was actually openly gay? And has there ever been one who wore her hair in a 'fro or in corn rows?
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I dont know, I doubt it. Did you look in to it? I'd love to know what you found. In a search for 'openly gay Miss USA' I just got more info about Prejean and her comments. I'd like to think if there were an openly lesbian Miss USA, and she felt making it known was significant (I feel it would be) that we would ALL know cuz the media would highlight it. Maybe you can find if there's ever been an attempt at having a GBLT (or BLT) beauty pageant? Like how there's a Plus Sized Miss USA (or Miss America- one of them I met her once) This might help to answer your question. If so let me know...
As far as contestants with an ethic appearance (locs, braids, silky twists, etc)*. We can only hope.** The pageant takes baby steps, but unless I want to become a figure in it's production I can't 'knock' it's progress even if I wish it was accelerated. For PC sake, I know there will always be at least one (ambiguously) Latina and one (ambiguously) African-American contestant, and usually an Asian woman, but I can't remember always seeing at least one Asian woman. So right now, I'm looking for more than just 2 women of color in the top 15 and 1 in the top 10 as there was this year. And I'm looking to see women with a darker complexion. Think more Grace Jones than Vanessa Williams. All this goes to stretching the standard beauty image in America. (Kudos to ANTM because Tyra always includes an array of beauty, but the differences and implications of modeling and pageantry is another blog all in itself) I dont have any doubt that all these changes will come about eventually (if this world is still here). If you really are interested in making a change, then get involved with it's production. If you are like me, then watch it, talk about it, and leave it alone.
*Many can benefit from grabbing a Black Natural Hair Mag to update your ideas of natural beauty.
**Mai children will ALL have locs, and a daughter will potentially compete in pageantry, so it's not that far of a stretch... give it time.
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Peace & Blessings
except to knock it, so I won't be looking at all. For me, it is safe to assume and say that it is not diverse, that it does not promote diversity, but instead promotes a stereotype of beauty that attempts to blend out all individual characteristics of its contestants. Since you searched, and found no counter example, I will hold to my opinion until I am confronted with counter evidence, but I have no desire to delve into that Barbie world myself, not even to try to find one remotely admirable quality.
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I am curious to know why you would ask? Was there a point you were going to make before everyone got all distracted?
There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic.~- Anais Nin
Mai said,
"When an Asian, Latina, African, etc woman wins their community feels pride because the standard for beauty in this country has continue to exclude many of them. That's power, pride, and encouragement. I also like seeing our the image of beauty has changed in America over the decades. Its iconic ('beauty queen'), its been going on since 1952... and pageantry prolly longer. Today those that won in the 50s and 60s wouldn't be considered 'drop dead gorgeous'. When an openly lesbian women wins, I'm sure it has a similar effect. The women individually serve to make the greater whole. The pageant itself is the real star. There's a platform for beautiful, educated, ambitious, motivated women to be spotlighted. The pageant is like Sarah Palin in that they help to shape the idea of women in America good and bad."
I wanted to know if such an example existed, one that did not try to blend their individual characteristics, be they their sexuality or ethnicity, into a prescribed communal understanding of beauty. i wanted to know if anyone who dared to stand out against the grain of what is considered universally beautiful would survive in such an environment. Honestly, i doubt that such a person would be drawn into such an extravaganza, so perhaps the women are all being served just fine, just as they want to be.
Mai did not assert that there was any such example, but when she said that it causes pride for minority communities when a person of an ethnic minority wins, I took issue with that..
I don't think pageantry is something that really can be accepted by most women as something that is progressive. If anything, it serves the purpose that charm schools used to, but incorporates sexuality into it. "Make sure you know how to advertise, ladies."
I could be wrong, but I can't endorse theset attempts to define femininity for me or my daughter, especially not when the script is written for the Sarah Palin's of the world. She does have a great smile, i must admit. Perhaps when an openly gay women competes, forget winning, i will feel differently.
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is that when women of other ethnicities are crowned it does broaden the scope of what beauty is in America, even if it's not as stark of a contrast as cornrolls, a black Miss USA is still expanding the game. Just like we celebrate Barack Obama becoming President but in several ways he's like every other American President on paper-- Ivy League background, Community Service Record, he's clean cut, well spoken, typical image of what America finds acceptable. Does he have locks? or even a fro? no, but that doesn't discount the importance of him being black.
Mai's post said nothing about women with drastic style differences winning Miss America, she spoke specifically about ethnicities. So yes it does matter that a dark skinned woman like Kenya Moore(named Kenya for that matter) is a former Miss America, the fact that she had her hair pressed doesn't change Mai's statement or make it less true or require her to find information about hairstyles of past winners in order to validate it.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
and you are correct, Mai's post said nothing about drastic hairstyles, but I asked about it anyway. The reason I asked is because if the answer could be "Yes, such women have competed," I could agree that it was an event that celebrated diversity. Your thoughts about Obama are valid, I still assert that pageants only celebrate women who fit an overall stereotype, and it is one that "whitewashes" women of ethnic minorities. More importantly though, to the topic at hand, is the fact that no openly gay women has ever competed, at least not to Mai knowledge.
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I think that it may depend on the pageant and how it is run.
My sister competed in and even won several pageants, and she's a hefty Mexican - not exactly the stereotype everyone here seems to think all pageants focus on solely.
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"when you have nothing else to say, "Fwonk" is always the perfect thing."
"yeah well, fwonk"
--Devon
Fanaile Essence
Kudos again Mjh7, I'm NOT going to go off and research every tangent people want to go off on. Besides, a lot of supposed questions people have would be answered to them if they took the time to read the blog in its entirety and the comments. When it gets long, it is more work, but that's the reader/responder being lazy not the blogger.
I am not a fan of beauty pageants in general. Judging people on physical beauty doesn't seem very healthy in and of itself. We shouldn't encourage young girls to want to model themselves after any one quite honestly.
When my father in law spoke at his father's funeral, he said something I will always remember. He said "Jackie Robinson, Floyd Paterson, ... these were people we admired, our parents were our role models."
Children learn what to do and their place in society from what they see at home. I don't think Hilary Clinton or Vanessa Williams should be a little girl's role model.
I think that no matter what a person believes about homosexuality it is completely unjustifiable to deny them human rights. Comparing it to incest doesn't apply because who is the victim in a homosexual relationship between two consenting adults? Who does it hurt? The truth is, nobody can tell me how it would hurt for gays to be able to get married. The people who are against it can't say how it hurts anything or anyone, it's just that they don't like it. Just because you don't like it doesn't give you the right to stand in the way of it, that's not Christian, it's certainly not "American", it's not even a humane thing to do.
I do respect that this chick said what she felt, and I think that every bigot should say what they feel, and there are consequences for those actions. That's what makes it respectable, you stood by your beliefs and took the heat for it. If she would've said something racist, I wouldn't have said "She should be banned from television!" instead I would probably be on here discussing how racist she is.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
Bigot isn't the first word I would think to call Prejean. Bigot is very broadly termed (and so overused and trite on this site) by both wikipedia and the new oxford american dictionary they both basically say: 'a person who is intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own'. She didn't say burn all the gays, move them to an island, or even don't allow them to get married (which we've already established she has little power to do), she just said she doesn't think it's right. I didn't get the impression she was going to be marching against it, or sitting down with legislature to find how to impede it. I didnt even see her acting like she's offended by gays. People calling her a bitch and a cunt are actually displaying a bigotry towards her. Cuz they are intolerant and take offense to her opinions. Disagree with the girl, but dont be hateful to her, or even threaten her. If I were actively fighting for equal marriage rights, I wouldn't want to represent that cause with hateful acts and behavior. If your attitude is "i dont have to be nice to her" then you're just a prick and a bad representation of your community and of human beings. "It's never too late to stop being a bitch" this is a quote from a UGK's Pimp C. And its true. We are all pricks from time to time, but some people seek to be offended, seek to offend, seek to oppress, seek to misunderstand, and seek to be pricks 24/7. Mean people suck and Mean people are mean.
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http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/mai
Peace & Blessings
Mai said,
"People calling her a bitch and a cunt are actually displaying a bigotry towards her. Cuz they are intolerant and take offense to her opinions. Disagree with the girl, but dont be hateful to her, or even threaten her"
Unless you are privy to information you are not sharing, although I do see a quote you used where someone used the term b---, I have refrained from using such terms, even in quotes, since I have received a TOS violation for doing so in the past. Was that quote in reference to our contestant/ loser of the pageant in question? It seems to me like you may be trying to incite negativity where there isn't any, at least not to the degree to which you would like.
Some people seek to be offended, oppressed, misrepresented and underrepresented.
Such people might have my sympathy, but not my support.
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Every time I tell maiself "dont REaddress issues you've already clearly expressed" but soo many times I relent... oh well here we go again:
Look upwards at the comment I posted entitled "Pop goes the weasel, so the weasel go pop! & Feminism" THE JUDGE that asked Prejean the question called her a bitch, then retracted it, then retracted the retraction, called her a bitch for a 2nd round, and then called her a cunt. There are at least 2 you tube links you can hear with your own ears.
And! I don't appreciate you asking me to research for you (open gay contestant, or contestant with natural hairstyles-- which i might add i never purported has occurred yet, but believe WHEN it does the respective communities will feel pride) I searched it for you because you said you were "really interested" (and even then prolly shouldn't have) but then you came clean to not really being interesting about it at all, I have little time to research for you on a whim. NOT COOL.
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Peace & Blessings
also, I don't think its "not cool" to ask you a question about something you chose to blog about, and one that I think is relevant. this is your blog, btw. I wasn't asking you to research for me, but asking you to back up your assertions that these kinds of things are good for any community, specifically, minority ones.
If you gave a speech, and I asked a question, and you turned around and asked me to look it up for you, that would be more like what has occurred here. You turned the burden of proof onto me, unfairly. Not cool.
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...but it is a standard of netiquette that when YOU make an assertion, it is YOUR responsiblity to back it up with approriately sourced materials.
This is especially true here at ProU, where we expect our members to abide to an even higher standard than you might find elsewhere on the net.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
Because they dont apply to me, and actually only serve to support what I'm saying. When did I assert that there has ever been an openly gay contestant or contestant with natural hair? IF I did, then and only then would I be shirking responsibility. This IS MAI blog, and no where in IT did I assert that. As a matter of fact, the way I worded my statement indicated that I didn't believe it has happened as of yet. But heres the thing, regardless if it had happened yet or hadn't, what I DID assert is totally correct: many gays would be proud and many people who appreciate natural hair would be proud.
If you write a blog about how the earth is flat, and I come and ask you if the trees on that flat earth grow from the branches up, that would be like what happened here. You do your own research about the trees, esp if you just intend to waste mai time. This is more than clear, say what YOU want, and i'm sure you will as history has demonstrated, but I'm done with this. So, on THIS matter:
TTYN,
mai
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Peace & Blessings
...was to raise a question and then demand that OTHERS do the necessary research to answer it FOR you. That's poor netiquette, and its a tact that won't win you any friends in the ProU community. If you WANT to be dismissed by the ProU community as as a lazy blogger, feel free...but if you want the respect of your readers, you might want to consider taking the suggestions of long-time members and staffers just a bit more seriously.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I love it, and thank you for sharing.
In all truth parents really are at the heart of such matters. Parents who leave their children to the wolves, by entering them into such competitions as beauty pageants, are most often reaching after their own pipe dreams.
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While I certainly don't think that children shouldn't look up to their parents, are you saying that parents and other family members should be the only role models for young girls? Just because someone is famous doesn't mean that they don't have any admirable qualities... Eleanor Roosevelt was an amazing woman, and I would not hesitate to encourage any daughters I may have to look up to her. Similarly, Amelia Earhart, Marie Curie, Mother Teresa, Queen Elizabeth, Queen Victoria, and countless other famous women have many characteristics that are to be admired. You shouldn't discourage young girls from using these as their role models simply because they're famous. After all, some parents aren't the best role models in the world....
~C
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It is not the job of Eleanore Roosevelt to raise the young girls of the nation. Parents are the ones who should be teaching the core values that children immolate, and to be honest I believe they are. I believe no matter how much you admire a celebrity or political figure you learned how to live from what you saw growing up in your actual life.
I think that there is a difference between a role model and someone you admire. I admire Malcolm X, Lauryn Hill, Stevland Morris, Afrika Bambaataa, Melvin Van Peebles -- from a professional stand point or as activists etc. I might take certain points away from their professional experience, but I do not wish to model my personal life after any of these people. I don't think young girls should get their core values from people they have never met, who don't know them or personally care about them.
I don't think anybody should look to someone who hasn't ever met them and doesn't care about them personally to guide them through life. If you want to look at Maxine Waters to help shape your political views or guide your professional that's one thing, but for you to look to her for your own personal growth is bad for you and unfair to her.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
...but I think it is important to rember that not all celebrities are considered so because they did something that makes them worthy of being a role model. The problem comes, I think, when people begin to place value on the quality of FAME without also considering WHY the celebrity is famous.
TTFN,
Blackout
---
A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
It is not the job of Eleanore Roosevelt to raise the young girls of the nation. Parents are the ones who should be teaching the core values that children immolate, and to be honest I believe they are. I believe no matter how much you admire a celebrity or political figure you learned how to live from what you saw growing up in your actual life.
I agree completely with this statement. I am very keen on the role of family in raising children and I have expressed that point of view many times here at ProgU.
But, unfortunately, some parents are worthless. My daughter's mother is a raging mean alcoholic. The only role as role model I want her to play in my daughter's life is, what not to do. I am a guy and obviously my daughter needs somebody to play the role of female role model. In my daughter's case, both of her grandmothers and one of her aunts have all done a fair job in this role. But some families are considerably more screwed up then mine and to whom should those young children look.
Lots of young parents are ignorant. They were failed both by their own parents and by the school system. If they are the primary role models for their children, then the cycle perpetuates. The best of these parents recognize their own short-comings and want something better for their children and actually play a role in helping their children choose external role models. I suspect that Barack and Michelle Obama has been thrust into this role in many a black American home and some white ones too.
I think external role models play a role. I often think that young parents are the ones that need a role model at least as much as their children.
When I first saw the video I was disappointed in Miss California's answer but it was a dreadfully unfair question and it took guts for her to stand up for what she thought. But having said that I cant believe people like this have any idea what is going on with this issue. How much do you want to bet Miss California has never spent more then a day with a gay person. I dont agree with calling her names she is merely uneducated on the issue like the wide majority of the world . In a follow up interview she said she believes in being "moraly correct" ! Come on if u want to be moraly correct you would not be a model or even a working women for that matter . In todays society trying to justify taking the bible literally is insane , it has little to no context today and more and more often people are just using it to justify spreading hate on COUNTLESS issues if you want to take the many good values the bible encourages and use them in your life fine . Dont try and take away other rights because they dont mesh with your beliefs . Another thing she did was say no offense and then go on to say being gay is wrong . Is it just me or is anyone else tired of people say no offence and carry on to lay out a line of insults ? Believe me like any guy I think these competitions are completely ridiculous and apparently your supposed to to talk your way out of everything . So was this really the place to go against other peoples rights ? - JaSOn
I recall her saying "biblically correct" (as apposed to her answer being "politically correct") where died you hear her say "morally correct"? cuz there is a difference between the two, and yea plenty of us are sick and tired of disclaimers check out the first 2 or 3 comments.
peace
mai
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Peace & Blessings
my mistake it was biblically correct but still no one is biblically correct - JaSOn
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting from her statement. Many Bibles have some passage, probably in Romans and in other Scriptures, that say something to the effect of 'men who lie with men won't inherit the Kingdom of God'... I'm paraphrasing here, but I know I'm pretty close. Anyway, Prejean was saying that her pov (She doesn't feel gays should get married.) is NOT politically correct, but it's "correct" in being with her Bible's views. I can see what she's saying with that statement. BUT equal marriage rights (in our current wicked yet beautiful world system) are a political issue. Because society is made up of many holy books, many dieties, many cultures, therefore it's not a Biblical issue, it's political.
Some religions (not many) segregate themselves completely from politics. Smart thing.
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http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/mai
Peace & Blessings
I think that he's referring to the fact that if she really wanted to be biblically correct, she wouldn't be in the pageant in the first place.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
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In a follow up interview she said she believes in being "moraly correct" ! Come on if u want to be moraly correct you would not be a model or even a working women for that matter .
Dragonwolf, is this what you are referring to here?She wouldn't be in the pageant because supposedly the Bible says women shouldn't be working? I'm missing you're point, but I'd like to understand.
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http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/mai
Peace & Blessings
...but I suspect that Dragonwolf is referring to the following:
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
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You've pretty much hit the nail on the head.
The whole principle behind pageantry as a whole seems (at least in my opinion) to go against the ideals of Christianity in general.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
I thought it was pretty sraight forward but all I ment is that she claims she doesnt care about being politically correct she aims and was brought up to be biblically correct and the bible says "a man should not lay with another man it is an obomination" or something close to that but clearly she is not biblically correct because the new roman testiment (and im pretty sure all other holy books have comments similar to this) says "For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." which is clearly saying women was created to please man. The bible also says that womens main occupation is to provide man with sex (not an exact quote but its in there in so many words) . Clearly a biblically correct women would not be in Miss America because the point of women is to serve men in the bible which is not what the Miss America pagent stands for. The ideal Miss America is supposed to be an independent proffessional women. She already contradicts herself there.
What i ment is that today it is impossible for anyone to be biblically correct or close to it the bible has SO many rules and practices which are supposed to be followed . Are justice system is far from biblically correct (Theres a little thing called the seperation of church and state) so why try and argue we should adjust laws to make them biblically correct? People who say we should follow the bibles teachings as a society are picking and choosing what should be followed and that makes little sense and is not 'biblically correct' . Marriage is a legal document not a religious document so it is wrong to apply religious beliefs to it
- JaSOn
(with a few spelling errors
) Otherwise, quite solid.
Point of contention though, just for fun:
You said,
"which is clearly saying women was created to please man. The bible also says that womens main occupation is to provide man with sex (not an exact quote but its in there in so many words) . Clearly a biblically correct women would not be in Miss America because the point of women is to serve men in the bible which is not what the Miss America pagent stands for. The ideal Miss America is supposed to be an independent proffessional women. She already contradicts herself there."
by the first part of the statement I am inclined to argue that pageantry is supported Biblically.
Basically, women serve to provide men with pleasure. Of course, things like pageants get this all screwed up because they are dominantly marketed to women, but that is just a sign of effective propaganda. Teaching women how to please men is what its all about, and part of that is remaining "available," or literally speaking, single, and at the same time to incite lust. Seems like the backbone of American sexual politics to me! Biblically supported, and all! No wonder Palin did so well for herself! Woman's job is to provide man with sex, or the ever elusive prospect of sex, whichever is most profitable to her, in the spirit of American liberty.
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" So God created Man is his own image, in the image of God created he him, Male and Female created him them" - Genesis 1:27
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for all are one in Christ Jesus" - Galatians 3:28
God did not create a gender class system, contrary to religious doctrine which is designed to get people to support the political and social views of the society. God created women to serve God. Esther was a queen who had no husband and freed her people from bondage, there's an entire book about it in the Bible called Esther.
There is are scripture that claim a man is the head of his family, but this is only within a family structure, where it charges the man to be responsible, protective, and unconditionally devoted to the improvement of his wife. It also calls for human beings to be submissive to one another.
Ephesians 5:21-33
I would love to read these scriptures where God says women are created for men's sexual pleasure, so please quote them. The good thing about the Bible as source material is that it gives you a specific place to find things so it makes it easier to pinpoint Chapters and Verses.
There is nothing in the Bible that states a single woman has any obligation to a man. There is also nothing that states a married woman is not permitted to have some sort of formal employment(especially considering that "jobs" are a societal concept, in a stateless society where there is no currency nobody actually has a career, everybody does what's needed to sustain the village etc.)
Let's not blame the Bible for our country's sexist thinking.
Now back to your Pageant/Gay Marriage blog already in progress.
Love-Health-Awareness-Wealth
Mjh
Mjh7 is one of the most intelligent, non judgmental, THOROUGH members I see on this site, super Kudos to you! You hit the nail on the head with this one. I'd never heard anyone in mai spiritual or religious communities equate the Bible to such misogyny. I dont feel oppressed by Bible teachings in any way as a woman or as a person of color. YOU are someone I might ACTUALLY take advice on how to 'win friends' (not mai true aim) from. Others are a long shot. I'm REALLY glad you are a member of this community. Your presence helps balance the behavior of the cyberbullys :) Keep it up! and I will keep striving to write blogs you want to read.
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Peace & Blessings
I'd never heard anyone in mai spiritual or religious communities equate the Bible to such misogyny. I dont feel oppressed by Bible teachings in any way as a woman or as a person of color.
Have you ever read the bible?
If you want to see a few examples of the pervasive misogyny of the bible, you might want to check out Genesis 3:16, Genesis 19:5-8, Isaiah 3:16-23, Numbers 5:12-31, Deuteronomy 22:20-21, Matthew 18:25, Isaiah 19:16, Jeremiah 50:37, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 1 Timothy 2:9, Esther 1:10-22, Judges 11, Leviticus 12:1-8, 1 Corinthians 11:5, Colossians 3:18 and of course my favorite...
The bible is similarly filled with examples of racial and cultural bias, as well as slavery...Mark 7:24-29, Matthew 15:21-28, Numbers 25:6-8, Colossians 4:1, I Peter 2:13-3:7, Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:2-11, Exodus 21:20-21, Ephesians 6:5 NLT, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Luke 12:47-48. My favorite of these of course, is this one...
Many modern congregations gloss over some of these...ahem..."finer" points of biblical instruction, but that doesn't make them any less a part of christian theology.
TTFN,
Blackout
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A question of love.
---
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I have a question/statement about your quote of Colossians 3:22. WHat you have written here "human masters" seems to me to sound like a think of people over animals and does not indicate racism in itself. I am not sure what cultural bias means but I do not see it evidenced here.
Also what translation do you use to quote from...all the translations I looked at do not say what you have written for Colossians 3:22 but the other Timothy one looks right... I know how much you don't like miss quoting things, so I am sure you just used a version I am not aware of.
There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic.~- Anais Nin