Civil Unions?

sonja's picture
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In light of California's Proposition 8 and the unfolding national protests, it seems to me that many people don't have a problem with gay and lesbian relationships, but want to hold "marriage" as something sacred (even if the divorce rate is over 50%). I would like to see the government delete the term marriage, and replace it with the term "civil union." It would stand that every right in marriage would obviously be transferred to civil union. (or maybe legal union?)

Marriage now doubles as a legal term as well as a religious term. Not all of us are religious. My thought is that any two consenting adults could get civil unions, and if they were religious, they could have a marriage ceremony. Some churches do believe in same-sex marriage, and it would be up to each church whether or not to allow same-sex marriages, but that would be irrelevant to the legal rights of the couple.

The Constitution says nothing about marriage. State constitutions do outline rights of married couples, and 30 define marriage as only between one man and one woman. Do you see a potential flaw in this idea of mine? I really can't. It would be a pain to change all those laws of marriage to laws of civil unions, but wouldn't it be worth it?

Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I would not mind the government being entirely out of the marriage business. Civil unions seems to be a more appropriate roll for government.

Interesting idea. i agree with you. it sounds like to me that prop8 is a violation of church and state.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

Historically speaking, a marriage IS a civil union. The religious connotation associated with the term is of relatively recent invention. Our Supreme Court has consistently ruled that the "freedom to marry"--specifically "to marry," not "to form a civil union"--is a basic civil right of the citizens of the United States. To delete a term from common useage in our legal codes on the premise that this term is somehow "owned" by religious people would in and of itself represent an unconstitutional establishment of religion. The bottom line is simple...religious people don't get to dictate their religous preferences into our laws...period.

TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

The marriages you are referring to were by definition a civil union between people of the opposite sex.

At no time in the history of Western Civilization has marriage meant anything different and you have to search far and wide for the scant examples in other civilizations where it has meant something different.

Extending marriage or even civil unions to people of the same sex requires a complete change of meaning and redefinition of the two original terms.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association
Quote:

At no time in the history of Western Civilization has marriage meant anything different and you have to search far and wide for the scant examples in other civilizations where it has meant something different.

This is simply not true (and having been corrected on this point before, I find your insistence on this point to be intentionally obtuse). There are numerous examples of the relationships of same-sex couples being recognized as "marriage" in a great many historical--and in a growing number of modern--societies. For example, from the African continent we know of the Yoruba, the Ibo, the Nuer, the Lovedu, the Zulu, the Sotho, the Kikuyu, the Nandi and the Azande peoples (just to name a few of the more well-known), all of whom have traditionally recognized same-sex marriages since ancient times. Closer to home, there are similar marriage arrangements that are historically associated with a number of Native American tribal groups, including the Mohave, the Lakota and the Zuni peoples. These Native American examples are particularly interesting, due to the wealth of sociological literature from the colonial era regarding the study of the "berdache." Heck, the U.S. government even accepted We'wha--a Zuni "lhamana" (or "man-woman")--as an ambassador in 1885-86.

And yes, We'wha was biologically male and had a "husband" in her tribe.

More examples include the Safavidi Dynasty (of the Middle-East), the Melaneians and Papua New Guineans (in the South Pacific), the people of the Song, Ming and Qing Dynasties (historical China), and the Samurai who practiced Shudo (in Japan). These cultures also demonstred a wide-spread accepted same-sex marriages in their midst. And let's not forget the Ancient Greeks and Romans. The Spartans (for example) practiced same-sex military marriages, and the Emporer Nero publically entered into a marriage arrangement with his male lover, Sporus (and many other similar relationships are well documented in the historical records of the Empire). The simple fact is that the idea of accepting same-sex couples is neither a recent nor a particularly unusual societal affectation. On the contrary, when you step away from the always ego-centric myopia of Western judaeo-christianity and islam---and the often quite imaginary versions of redacted history that they tend to espouse--the rabid opposition same-sex couples and their relationships that we see today seems more than a little odd.

Quote:

Extending marriage or even civil unions to people of the same sex requires a complete change of meaning and redefinition of the two original terms.

I think the Supreme Court of Massachussetts has written the best available response to this point...

A comment is in order with respect to the insistence of some that marriage is, as a matter of definition, the legal union of a man and a woman. To define the institution of marriage by the characteristics of those to whom it always has been accessible, in order to justify the exclusion of those to whom it never has been accessible, is conclusory and bypasses the core question we are asked to decide...This case calls for a higher level of legal analysis. Precisely, the case requires that we confront ingrained assumptions with respect to historically accepted roles of men and women within the institution of marriage and requires that we reexamine these assumptions...[A]s matter of constitutional law, neither the mantra of tradition, nor individual conviction, can justify the perpetuation of a hierarchy in which couples of the same sex and their families are deemed less worthy of social and legal recognition than couples of the opposite sex and their families.

TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

what do you mean when you say "Western Civilization"? European Civilization? Because that's the only way what you say could be true.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...due to the historical examples in Greek and Roman societies.

TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

sonja's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I read that the Greeks and Romans preferred their soldiers to be gay. It built a stronger camaraderie. Also, they weren't side-tracked with so much rape and pillage. (I did say that for effect, but I really did read that, or saw it on the History channel?)

-Sonja :)
"I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" ~ Peter Finch as Howard Beale, 1976, "Network"

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...but you were probably watching a show about the Spartans, who had an institutionalized form of homosexuality as a part of their military structure. In a more general context, many Greeks practiced a kind of same-sex mentorship between older men and women and younger men and women, that were commonly sexual. These arrangements were less common in Roman culture, but still prevalent. The Romans however took things a step further in allowing citizens to marry a partner of the same-sex. This practice ended after the Roman Empire converted to christiantiy, just before it fell.

TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

sonja's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

But religion has redefined the word in our culture a long time ago. Let's face that.

All I'm saying is that we want equal rights for all. If a term has to be changed to a phrase, what does it harm?

I think religion should go ahead and steal the word "marriage." If a couple has a civil union and is religious, they can take another step to have a marriage, under God and all that.

I just think it would be a shorter victory.

-Sonja :)
"I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" ~ Peter Finch as Howard Beale, 1976, "Network"

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association
Quote:

All I'm saying is that we want equal rights for all. If a term has to be changed to a phrase, what does it harm?

It harms the basic civil rights of all citizens to allow a group of citizens to use the law to further the aims of their religion. That's why the First Amendment forbids any sort of religoius establishment.

TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

sonja's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

What is the goal of homosexual couples that want legal protection to be so?
-to have the exact same rights as heterosexual married couples do

What is the main basis of promotion of anti-gay legislation?
-religious views about the definition of marriage

Wouldn't this be a compromise but end in both being satisfied? Religion has already stolen the Prop 8 vote. I think there has to be some type of compromise to make this really happen.

Let's also point out that our civil rights are often infringed upon. Add abortion to the list soon enough. The definition's already changing.

-Sonja :)
"I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" ~ Peter Finch as Howard Beale, 1976, "Network"

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

When someone tries to steal something that belongs to you, most people won't agree that you should "compromise" with the thief. These are basic civil rights, and I for one (and in that, I am not alone) am not willing to "compromise" with those who wish to steal my basic civil rights. The First Amendment to the Constitution doesn't say we should "compromise and let the churches have their way." It says that we must allow "no laws respecting an establishment of religion." Religion doesn't own the word marriage, even after centuries of trying to convince people otherwise.

TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

sonja's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I am very much for equal rights, and I don't really care what they call them. No, it's not right, and it isn't fair. Neither is the electoral college or our limited right to assemble.

Bush let the HHS has passed a rule that could be detrimental to women's health care. That is more important to me than changing a term to a phrase.

-Sonja :)
"I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" ~ Peter Finch as Howard Beale, 1976, "Network"

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...since both situations represent attacks on the basic civil rights of citizens.

TTFN,
Blackout
-------------------------
Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.

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