America will become a Muslim country of Mexicans who are ALL Gay!!!!!!

LiberalDaniel's picture
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Mike Huckabee, a republican conservative presidential candidate holds a firm extremist perspective toward homosexuals. Huckabee has been quoted several times on his anti-homosexual remarks on sexual acts and gay marriage and the separate but equal proposal of civil unions.

It is religious fanatics like Huckabee and George W. Bush, who cast a plague on this country and rid it of any purity and essence of religious and civil freedom. It is obvious that their perspectives come from religious upbringing and background. It is important to note that although our government is supposed to have a separation of church and state, that politicians and legislation is strongly favored or opposed because of religious tolerance or intolerance. Religion can be one factor that influences a decision of right and wrong or of what is moral.

When a politician (Mike Huckabee) is quoted saying "Unless Moses comes down with two stone tablets from Brokeback Mountain to tell us something different, we need to keep that understanding of marriage," this should be a strong indicator that this individual is too involved in forcing his religious belief upon America and should be avoided at all costs. Mike Huckabee's hate influenced comment was mentioned before he announced his candidacy for president, while speaking to a group of Christian conservatives. Huckabee has been noted as having the toughest position on gay marriage and even opposes civil unions, but instead suggests that homosexuals should use "power of attorney" to resolve issues that would usually be addressed in rights that come with a legal marriage. Apparently, this idiot doesn't address that "power of attorney" does not in any way address the issues related to social security and other federal benefits granted to married couples or a surviving spouse.

The narrow minded and misguided politician, (no, not George Bush, but the other dumbass), Mike Huckabee has also made remarks stating that gays with AIDS should be isolated and he openly expressed his support of an actual CONSTITUTIONAL amendment redefining a legal marriage as being between one man and one woman. I believe that politicians have more important matters to attend to, than spreading hate and discrimination.

This all sounds too familiar! It's the SAME political tool Bush used when he stole the last two elections. The republicans or conservative candidates pull their "GAY or HOMOSEXUAL" card, and rally up supporters, in an effort to win the election. Their tools will be 1) Homosexuals, 2) Terrorism and 3) Immigrants. I foresee these being their points of target, because all three focus on "outsiders" and use the "us against them" ideology. These artificial concerns or hype is used to terrify the nation to thinking America will become a Muslim country of Mexicans who are ALL Gay!!!!!!

It is because of these focus points, why one part of the divided nation will support a candidate like Mike Hukabee. It is unfortunate that any and all supporters of these discriminatory, prejudice, or unreal "ISSUES" are too, misguided souls and need to be saved by Jesus or his wife Mary Magdalene.

-Liberal Daniel
www.myspace.com/liberaldaniel


MIKE HUCKABEE IS A THREAT TO THIS NATION!

truelife90's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

That was well written! Personally, I would like to see a politician who truly follow the concept of separation of church and state. However, you too have to realized that the majority people in America are...well...somewhat religious people. Voters want a President who has similar point of views on different issues. Maybe President Bush does not mind homosexuals and support gay rights. However, due to the fact that he needs VOTES, maybe he had to voice out another opinion. That's another way to look at things, I guess.

For some reason, it's REALLY hard for me to imagine a Muslim country of Mexicans who are all gay...haha I really can't picture it.

Your Funeral Guy
R.Brian Burkhardt
http://lowercostfuneral.com

Please write my obituary,

Your Funeral guy

What troubles me most about my country is that the topics that are heavily debated are completely irrelevant to what the leader of the "free world" should be discussing. Where's all the debates about the economy, education, and healthcare? What about the important issues? What does a President's religion has to do with running a country? Twenty years from now, the antigay marriage debates will be another addition to the long list of American embarrassments.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When great changes occur in history, when great principles are involved, as a rule the majority are wrong." ~Eugene V. Debs

Mignonchang's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

It seems that a large majority of debates in America concern religious issues. Stem cell research, homosexuality, the use of condoms and abortion... It seems such an impedement on personal freedom. There are also very good issues that get muddled by religion. I can think of a dozen reasons for abstinence without touching on religion. The church should stay out of issues of the State, and some churches, like 'the local churches', actually do, which I consider one merit of their order.

I just read an article that seems relevant to what you're saying:
http://www.xanga.com/ronlawhouston/632921369/politics-and-religion.html

"Mike Huckabee, a republican conservative presidential candidate holds a firm extremist perspective toward homosexuals. Huckabee has been quoted several times on his anti-homosexual remarks on sexual acts and gay marriage and the separate but equal proposal of civil unions.It is religious fanatics like Huckabee and George W. Bush"

Gosh Dan, seems like you have such a balanced and open mind.
Its hard to know were to begin when confronting a post that projects such a pluralistic and non-biased viewpoint.

Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

This all sounds too familiar! It's the SAME political tool Bush used when he stole the last two elections.

You're serious?

*Edited By Kristinalyig07 for a ToS Violation.*

embryowassup's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I really don't feel like getting into the 'separation of church and state' argument again (I did it so many times last year), but I will say this: Huckabee has also said that marriage is a state's rights issue (which it is).

--Mike

Check out the Topic of the Week
http://www.progressiveu.org/weeklytopic

...``Huckabee has also said that marriage is a state's rights issue (which it is).``

He says different things out of both sides of his mouth. He `s never suggested turning over to the states the more than one thousand federal rights and responsibilities of marriage. He has also advocated changing the US Constitution to institutionalize a federal definition that would withhold rights from same sex couples even if state courts, legislators or electorates wish to decide otherwise.

embryowassup's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

Yes, and there's a silly little caveat. That would require ratification by congress which represents (or is supposed to represent) the 50 states and their districts. Thus, it could be (loosely) interpreted as the states having reached a consensus (inasmuch as the tyranny of the majority is a consensus).

Regardless, I don't support Teddybear Huckabee. I'm voting Ron Paul. Mostly because Barry Goldwater is dead. :(

--Mike

Check out the Topic of the Week
http://www.progressiveu.org/weeklytopic

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...marriage is a state's rights issue (which it is).

Marriage stopped being a "State Right" when the 14th Amendment was passed. Our Supreme Court has ruled that marriage (or more accurately, the "freedom to marry") is a "basic civil right" (see Loving v. Virginia). States may not infringe upon the basic rights of citizens.

Here's a simple question for you, to put it in perspective. Do you think that a State should be able to make interracial marriages illegal?

percivale

-------------------------

"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

embryowassup's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

Percivale, you've been here long enough to know that it's absolutely absurd to wonder if I think that anyone should be able to make anything illegal.

--Mike

Check out the Topic of the Week
http://www.progressiveu.org/weeklytopic

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

How could I have forgotten? :) Seriously, though...that's exactly what was happening at the time of the Loving case. States were denying, and even criminalizing interracial marriages on a State by State basis. The Loving decision established (among other things) that this was improper, and that the 14th Amendment guaranteed the freedom to marry as a fundamental right afforded to all citizens, regardless of their State of residence.

percivale

-------------------------

"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

cdante79's picture

Loving v. Virginia was a case that argued miscegenation rights, not sexual orientation.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

The particular case involved an anti-miscegenation statute, but the legal precedents set by Loving were far more reaching. Loving clearly identifies the freedom to marry as a basic civil right that is protected from invidious classification by the Fourteenth Amendment. The Supreme Court has already acknowledged the similarity between anti-miscegenation (and the Loving case in particular) to the issue of LGBT rights...

“Our prior cases make two propositions abundantly clear. First, the fact that the governing majority in a State has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice; neither history nor tradition could save a law prohibiting miscegenation from constitutional attack. Second, individual decisions by married persons, concerning the intimacies of their physical relationship, even when not intended to produce offspring, are a form of “liberty” protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Moreover, this protection extends to intimate choices by unmarried as well as married persons.” ~ Lawrence v. Texas

percivale

-------------------------

"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

Member of the Progressive U Alumni Association

I agree with what you wrote and i agree!
I live in TN.. and the republicans won the last senate election because they put a change in the state Constitution or w/e it is saying that marriage is btw a man and a woman. So all the christians came out and voted for that and also voted for the republican party. That day, we were the only state to elect a new republican in. IT SUCKED

http://digits2006.blogspot.com/

LiberalDaniel's picture

I beleieve marriage is not a state's right, but is simply a Civil Right. This can not be any clearer. The right to marry is a basic civil right and should be granted to all equally, even same sex partners.

- Liberal Daniel
www.myspace.com/liberaldaniel

nertoshbakimonkey's picture

ive actually heard alot of not so good things about Huckabee. his little christmas commercial was rather interesting as well. As a liberal, I appreciate your honesty in writing this.

cdante79's picture

Terrorism is a key issue mainly because there continues to be attacks all over the world and there is no hiding that reality. To do so would be to look at the world through rose colored glasses. The two other top issues that have been debated the most have been health care and the economy. Illegal immigration ties into both economic and terrorism issues. As far has homosexual marraige being a key issue debated among Republicans is totally inaccurate. I could literally count on my hands the time a homosexual marraige question has been raised in the Republican primary. Republicans don't care to discuss the issue because the issue takes care of itself. Voters have already spoken in most states of the Union and every major poll consistantly shows Americans against homosexual marraige. http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm

LiberalDaniel's picture

I can care less what the polls show. Just because it's the majority opinion, does not make it right. Which I know, you have not commented on whether or not it's right or wrong, since that is not the topic of this post, but none the less, I do find it necessary to point that out, incase anyone feels that because the majority supports discrimination, does not make it right, and because Huckabee is in this bracket, he too is wrong and that alone disqualifies him from the position of president. And it makes him a very dangerous and confused man, because he is willing to force his religious beliefs upon this country. ;O)

- Liberal Daniel
www.myspace.com/liberaldaniel

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

As far has homosexual marraige being a key issue debated among Republicans is totally inaccurate. I could literally count on my hands the time a homosexual marraige question has been raised in the Republican primary. Republicans don't care to discuss the issue because the issue takes care of itself.

The reason you don't see much debate in Republican Primaries over the issue of same-sex marriage is that basically, all of the Republican candidates hold the same position on the issue. But, it has been at least mentioned in viritually all of the major debates so far, and it is a hot-button issues for candidates like Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani, both of whom have had to flip-flop in order to satisfy the religious extremists that make up a significant portion of the core Republican base.

Voters have already spoken in most states of the Union and every major poll consistantly shows Americans against homosexual marraige. http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm

Did you look closely at the polls you cited? Yes, a relatively small percentange of those polled favor full marriage equality for gay people when it is an all or nothing question, but at the same time, there is a clear majority trend to support some form of legal recognition for same-sex relationships (marriage OR civil unions) rather than the blanket opposition to any recognition that is the Republican Party plank. For example, from your own source...

Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll. Oct. 19-22, 2007
Marriage or Civil Unions - 56%
Neither - 38%

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. May 4-6, 2007
Marriage or Civil Unions - 50%
Neither - 45%

Newsweek Poll conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International. March 14-15, 2007
Marriage or Civil Unions - 50%
Neither - 44%

FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. Nov. 4-5, 2006
Marriage or Civil Unions - 60%
Neither - 32%

CBS News/New York Times Poll. Oct. 27-31, 2006
Marriage or Civil Unions - 57%
Neither - 38%

This is the kind of disconnect from actual public opinion that has been killing the Republican Party for the last eight years. Long term trend data likewise demonstrates a clear trend towards an increasing acceptance of not only same-sex relationships, but LGBT rights in general. And when you break it all down demographically, the primary opposition on LGBT issues comes consistently from the oldest and most religious parts of the population, both of which are populations in numerical decline. At this point, the full recognition of the rights of LGBT people is just a matter of time, while we wait for all the old bigots to die out.

percivale

-------------------------

"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

LiberalDaniel's picture

Percivale, I loooove you! lol. You ALWAYS amaze me with your genius comments and clear, concise, and morally correct responses! I can just kiss ya! muah!!
Feel free to fight back agaist the nasties on my youtube video about this, lol.

Heres the link: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZAH5WTMDSeI

- Liberal Daniel
www.myspace.com/liberaldaniel

It is a conscious/unconscious tactic of the left to analogize sex with race and therefore co-opt the moral authority of slavery & segregation in its bid for “equal rights” that the country rightfully rejects.

One seldom finds an argument for same-sex “marriage” or Lawrence that doesn’t use this transparent tactic.

The truth is that the analogy just doesn’t hold up – and without this spurious analogy the left has little cogent or compelling reasoning on the merits alone.

Multiple State Supreme Courts have now rejected this egrigious reasoning (comparing sexual orientation to race) When you consider that SSM legal advocates have carefully chosen the most sympathetic venues since Goodridge, this record of losses is especially significant. They include Washington, Maryland, New York & now Road Island.

The problem with the (horribly over used) Loving example is its power comes from mere analogy. The problem with analogy is it is exactly that: an analogy.Its weight raises and falls on the strength of the analogy. Courts have been quick to dismiss this characterization of marriage law with racial segregation.

The point of anti—miscegenation laws were to keep the races apart. No one would seriously argue that that is the point of marriage law. Quite the opposite, the intention of marriage law is to bring the two sexes together.

Note this quote rebuke of same-sex “marriage” offered by the plurality in Hernandez v. New York, Justice Smith, when confronting the idea that marriage as historically defined was analogous to Loving.

“[T]he traditional definition of marriage is not merely a byproduct of historical injustice. Its history is of a different kind.”

The use of the term kind is telling. Not a matter of degree, mind you. Rather a different of qualitative substance…a difference of kind.

As dismissals of the Loving v Virginia case goes, this is rather mild. However – I like it for precisely that reason. It dismisses casually an analogy that doesn’t hold up precisely because it is not the same kind of things being compared.

A more substantive reason for the dismissal of the analogy is best portrayed in the Washington decision.

“We vigorously reject any attempt to link the discriminatory Anti miscegenation laws in Loving with this State’s DOMA. The Washington Court of Appeals in Singer correctly noted: the Loving and Perez courts [Perez v. Sharp, 32 Cal. 2d 711, 198 P.2d 17 (1948)] did not change the basic definition of marriage as the legal union of one man and one woman; rather, they merely held that the race of the man or woman desiring to enter that relationship could not be considered by the state in granting a marriage license. 11 Wn. App. at 255 n.8. Numerous other courts have all rejected the claim that the decision in Loving somehow challenged state laws reaffirming marriage as the union of one man and one woman.25 Careful review of the historical context of Loving further undermines the dissents’ disturbing attempt to link constitutionally void, racist laws with a historical definition of marriage as between a man and woman. Anti miscegenation laws were anathema to the “color-blind” constitution articulated in Justice John Marshall Harlan’s dissent in Plessy v. Ferguson.26 Anti miscegenation laws infringed upon the union of one man and one woman by injecting racial status as a qualification. Such laws contradicted the fact that a man and a woman of any race have the natural right to marry and have children. This right is protected by the United States and Washington State Constitutions. Racially discriminatory anti miscegenation laws also violate the right to marriage between a man and a woman. Here, in contrast, the State’s DOMA simply confirms the common law understanding of marriage as a union of a man and woman. It is the dissent that would abrogate the common law understanding through judicial fiat.

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

It is a conscious/unconscious tactic of the left to analogize sex with race and therefore co-opt the moral authority of slavery & segregation in its bid for “equal rights” that the country rightfully rejects.

Sex and race do equate in this case, since both are invidiously applied categories used to justify discrimination in a similar fashion.

One seldom finds an argument for same-sex “marriage” or Lawrence that doesn’t use this transparent tactic.

One only needs to cite Lawrence, since the comparison was part of a standing decision of the Supreme Court of the United States, which is of course the definitive source for settling constitutional arguments. But, the comparison is not quite the leap that you suggest in any case.

Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel, Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood," King stated. "This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group." - Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.

We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say “common struggle” because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination. - Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.

For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law.... I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. My husband, Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” On another occasion he said, “I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible.” Like Martin, I don’t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others. So I see this bill as a step forward for freedom and human rights in our country and a logical extension of the Bill of Rights and the civil rights reforms of the 1950’s and ‘60’s. The great promise of American democracy is that no group of people will be forced to suffer discrimination and injustice. - Coretta Scott King, remarks, press conference on the introduction of ENDA, Washington, DC, June 23, 1994.

The late Dr. King and his wife were and remain two of the most influential voice in the fight againt discrimination of all kinds, and they represent a pretty significant rebuttal to the idea that there is no connection between the issues of racism and homophobia.

The truth is that the analogy just doesn’t hold up - and without this spurious analogy the left has little cogent or compelling reasoning on the merits alone.

That is completely untrue. The Fourteenth Amendment quite plainly affords the "equal protection of the laws" to all citizens, not just the straight ones. And, the applicability of the Fourteenth Amendment to the issue of LGBT rights is a fact that has been acknowledged by the Supreme Court of the United States on more than one occasion (Romer v. Evans, Lawrence v. Texas, Goodridge v. Public Health).

Multiple State Supreme Courts have now rejected this egrigious reasoning (comparing sexual orientation to race) When you consider that SSM legal advocates have carefully chosen the most sympathetic venues since Goodridge, this record of losses is especially significant. They include Washington, Maryland, New York & now Road Island.

When the reasoning of a State Supreme Court conflicts with the reasoning of the Supreme Court of the United States, guess which one trumps the other. Romer, Lawrence and Goodrige all made this comparison, and as such it is rather silly to suggest that a comparison that has been repeatedly affirmed in the highest Court in our country is utterly without merit.

The problem with the (horribly over used) Loving example is its power comes from mere analogy. The problem with analogy is it is exactly that: an analogy.Its weight raises and falls on the strength of the analogy. Courts have been quick to dismiss this characterization of marriage law with racial segregation.

Some State Courts have been willing to dismiss the relevance of the analogy, but the Supreme Court of the United States (which is the only one that ultimately matters) has specifically offered the analogy in a standing opinion. This makes the comparison definitively applicable.

The point of anti-miscegenation laws were to keep the races apart. No one would seriously argue that that is the point of marriage law. Quite the opposite, the intention of marriage law is to bring the two sexes together.

Different people get married for different reason. The government does not have a legitimate purpose to serve in telling people why they should get married, or not. Specifically, the Court has defined the relevant right to this question to be the "freedom to marry," which directly implies the fact that it is an individual couple's choice, not the wishes of the government or other citizens who are not party to the relationship which is at stake.

Note this quote rebuke of same-sex “marriage” offered by the plurality in Hernandez v. New York, Justice Smith, when confronting the idea that marriage as historically defined was analogous to Loving.

“[T]he traditional definition of marriage is not merely a byproduct of historical injustice. Its history is of a different kind.”

The use of the term kind is telling. Not a matter of degree, mind you. Rather a different of qualitative substance…a difference of kind.

As dismissals of the Loving v Virginia case goes, this is rather mild. However - I like it for precisely that reason. It dismisses casually an analogy that doesn’t hold up precisely because it is not the same kind of things being compared.

It is interesting to note the context in which the New York Court in Hernandez ruled.

"Our conclusion that there is a rational basis for limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples leads us to hold that that limitation is valid under the New York Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses, and that any expansion of the traditional definition of marriage should come from the Legislature...In general, we have used the same analytical framework as the Supreme Court in considering due process cases, though our analysis may lead to different results."

The decision in Hernandez is not definitive in its claim that Loving is irrelevant to case of same-sex marriages. The decisions of the SCOTUS in Romer and Lawrence, and their upholding of Goodridge each cast significant doubt on the rationale used in Hernandez.

A more substantive reason for the dismissal of the analogy is best portrayed in the Washington decision.

“We vigorously reject any attempt to link the discriminatory Anti miscegenation laws in Loving with this State’s DOMA."

Like Hernandez, the Anderson v. King County ruling only ruled that the State's DOMA did not violate the Washington State Constitution. And, they can "vigorously reject" the relevance of Loving all they want, but the SCOTUS' repeated acknowledgedment of the analogy's validity makes their dissent essentially irrelevant. Clinging to the isolated decisions of a few lower courts is just a tactic that hopes to avoid the fact these decisions aren't really consistent with the Supreme Court precedents that supercede them.

percivale

-------------------------

"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

They are more conservitive not less than the various State Courts.

Multiple State Supreme Courts including New York, Maryland, Washington & now Road Island have said that there is no fundamental right to same-sex marriage, that laws defining marriage as a union of husband and wife are substantially different from those banning interracial marriage, and that the link between marriage and procreation justifies the state's definition of marriage as a union of husband and wife.

You are making the same mistake the New York Court points out in its recent decision. Discussing the Supreme Court precedents of Turner v. Safley, 482 U.S. 78 (1987); Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374 (1978); Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967); Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965); Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535 (1942)

Judge Graffeo noted….

“To ignore the meaning ascribed to the right to marry in these cases and substitute another meaning in its place is to redefine the right in question and to tear the resulting new right away from the very roots that caused the U.S. Supreme Court and this Court to recognize marriage as a fundamental right in the first place.”2

The Court of Appeals of Maryland (the state’s highest court) issued a recent decision Deane & Polyak,v. Conaway,

Sighting the same United States Supreme Court precedents as the N.Y court : the Marryland High Court noted that these previous cases recognizing a fundamental right to marry“infer that the right to marry enjoys its fundamental status due to the male-female nature of the relationship and/or the attendant link to fostering procreation of our species.” In fact, the court said that virtually all of the cases “indicate as the basis for the conclusion the institution’s inextricable link to procreation, which necessarily and biologically involves participation (in ways either intimate or remote) by a man and a woman.”

In terms of the justifications for the current marriage law, the court ruled “fostering procreation is a legitimate government interest” and the “‘inextricable link’ between marriage and procreation reasonably could support the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman only, because it is that relationship that is capable of producing biological offspring of both members

The court held “the fundamental right to marriage and its ensuing benefits are conferred on opposite-sex couples not because of a distinction between whether various opposite-sex couples actually procreate, but rather because of the possibility of procreation.”

blackout's picture
Volunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

...but it is, I think, warranted...

Your faith in the Supremes is misplaced.
They are more conservitive not less than the various State Courts.

It is true that we have a very conservative SCOTUS, but then true conservatives tend to reject the notion that the government should be able to insert itself into the private lives of citizens, and especially into private contracts (like marriages).

Multiple State Supreme Courts including New York, Maryland, Washington & now Road Island have said that there is no fundamental right to same-sex marriage, that laws defining marriage as a union of husband and wife are substantially different from those banning interracial marriage, and that the link between marriage and procreation justifies the state's definition of marriage as a union of husband and wife.

You can quote as many STATE Supreme Courts as you like. The STATE Supreme Court of Virgina likewise affirmed the validity of that State's anti-miscegenation laws before the Supreme Court of the United States struck them down. No matter how much you don't like the the SCOTUS has already acknowledged the validity of the Loving comparison in this issue in multiple, standing precedents. To suggest that the High Court will suddenly flip-flop on three landmark precedents is a very shaky argument, I think.

You are making the same mistake the New York Court points out in its recent decision. Discussing the Supreme Court precedents of Turner v. Safley, 482 U.S. 78 (1987); Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374 (1978); Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967); Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965); Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535 (1942)

If I am, then I am making the same mistake that the High Court has made...which really means that it isn't a mistake, at all.

Judge Graffeo noted….

“To ignore the meaning ascribed to the right to marry in these cases and substitute another meaning in its place is to redefine the right in question and to tear the resulting new right away from the very roots that caused the U.S. Supreme Court and this Court to recognize marriage as a fundamental right in the first place.”2

The Court of Appeals of Maryland (the state’s highest court) issued a recent decision Deane & Polyak,v. Conaway,

Sighting the same United States Supreme Court precedents as the N.Y court : the Marryland High Court noted that these previous cases recognizing a fundamental right to marry“infer that the right to marry enjoys its fundamental status due to the male-female nature of the relationship and/or the attendant link to fostering procreation of our species.” In fact, the court said that virtually all of the cases “indicate as the basis for the conclusion the institution’s inextricable link to procreation, which necessarily and biologically involves participation (in ways either intimate or remote) by a man and a woman.”

There are two fundamental flaws in these cases. The first is that there is no longer ANY connection between procreative rights and marital rights. There used to be, but our country has long since eliminated the legal status of "illegitimate" from its laws. Currently, there is not ONE law in any jurisdiction of this country that provides even ONE right or priviledge relating to the parent-child relationship that is contingent on the marital status of the parents. Legitimacy used to be a significant concern, but it is so no longer. Secondly, appeals of this sort represent no protection at all from the decisions of the High Court, as the SCOTUS itself pointed out in Lawrence.

"Our prior cases make two propositions abundantly clear. First, the fact that the governing majority in a State has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice; neither history nor tradition could save a law prohibiting miscegenation from constitutional attack."

In one stroke of their collective pen, the SCOTUS noted not only that the history and tradition of marriage in this country is irrelevant to the question of whether or not those practices are constitutionally valid, but it also notes the maked similarity between anti-gay laws and anti-miscegation laws. Deny it to your hearts content, but a SCOTUS precedent trumps the rulings of a State Supreme Court every time.

In terms of the justifications for the current marriage law, the court ruled “fostering procreation is a legitimate government interest” and the “‘inextricable link’ between marriage and procreation reasonably could support the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman only, because it is that relationship that is capable of producing biological offspring of both members

The court held “the fundamental right to marriage and its ensuing benefits are conferred on opposite-sex couples not because of a distinction between whether various opposite-sex couples actually procreate, but rather because of the possibility of procreation.”

These further comments also demonstrate another major flaw, which is the fact that in U.S. law, de facto families are entitled to the same protections as biological families. We already offer protection to families that are incapable of biologically producing children (in the case of sterility, adoption, etc.). A gay couple who adopts a child is just as much a family as a heterosexual couple who does the same, and there is a painfully obvious disparity in saying that a heterosexual couples can seek marriage to protect their family, while a gay couple cannot.

Your seem to feel that your evaluation of the Loving case is absolute, but in each of the cases you have cited, there have been strong dissents issued from the bench that offer exactly the arguments which I have presented, and which the Supreme Court of the United States has implied in its standing precedents. I think that Chief Judge Kay's dissent in Hernandez case is particularly well expressed and poignant...

This State has a proud tradition of affording equal rights to all New Yorkers. Sadly, the Court today retreats from that proud tradition...Under both the State and Federal Constitutions, the right to due process of law protects certain fundamental liberty interests, including the right to marry. Central to the right to marry is the right to marry the person of one's choice (see e.g. Crosby v State of N.Y., Workers' Compensation Bd., 57 NY2d 305, 312 [1982] ["clearly falling within (the right of privacy) are matters relating to the decision of whom one will marry"]; People v Shepard, 50 NY2d 640, 644 [1980] ["the government has been prevented from interfering with an individual's decision about whom to marry"]). The deprivation of a fundamental right is subject to strict scrutiny and requires that the infringement be narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling state interest (see e.g. Carey v Population Servs. Intl., 431 US 678, 686 [1977]). Fundamental rights are those "which are, objectively, deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition . . . and implicit in the concept of ordered liberty, such that neither liberty nor justice would exist if they were sacrificed" (Washington v Glucksberg, 521 US 702, 720-721 [1997] [internal quotation marks and citations omitted]). Again and again, the Supreme Court and this Court have made clear that the right to marry is fundamental (see e.g. Loving v Virginia, 388 US 1 [1967]; Zablocki v Redhail, 434 US 374 [1978]; Turner v Safley, 482 US 78 [1987]; Matter of Doe v Coughlin, 71 NY2d 48, 52 [1987]; Cooper v Morin, 49 NY2d 69, 80 [1979]; Levin v Yeshiva Univ., 96 NY2d 484, 500 [2001] [Smith, J., concurring] ["marriage is a fundamental constitutional right"]). The Court concludes, however, that same-sex marriage is not deeply rooted in tradition, and thus cannot implicate any fundamental liberty. But fundamental rights, once recognized, cannot be denied to particular groups on the ground that these
groups have historically been denied those rights. Indeed, in recasting plaintiffs' invocation of their fundamental right to marry as a request for recognition of a "new" right to same-sex marriage, the Court misapprehends the nature of the liberty interest at stake. In Lawrence v Texas (539 US 558 [2003]), the Supreme Court warned against such error.

Chief Judge Kay noted as I have that the the Court is making exactly the error which the Suprme Court has warned against in Lawrence.

Lawrence overruled Bowers v Hardwick (478 US 186 [1986]), which had upheld a Georgia statute criminalizing sodomy. In so doing, the Lawrence Court criticized Bowers for framing the issue presented too narrowly. Declaring that "Bowers was not correct when it was decided, and it is not correct today" (539 US at 578), Lawrence explained that Bowers purported to analyze--erroneously-- whether the Constitution conferred a "fundamental right upon homosexuals to engage in sodomy" (539 US at 566 [citation omitted]). This was, however, the wrong question. The fundamental right at issue, properly framed, was the right to engage in private consensual sexual conduct--a right that applied to both homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. In narrowing the claimed liberty interest to embody the very exclusion being challenged, Bowers "disclose[d] the Court's own failure to appreciate the extent of the liberty at stake" (Lawrence, 539 US at 567).

The same failure is evident here. An asserted liberty interest is not to be characterized so narrowly as to make inevitable the conclusion that the claimed right could not be fundamental because historically it has been denied to those who now seek to exercise it (see Planned Parenthood of Southeastern
Pa. v Casey, 505 US 833, 847 [1992] [it is "tempting . . . to suppose that the Due Process Clause protects only those practices, defined at the most specific level, that were protected against government interference by other rules of law when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. . . . But such a view would be inconsistent with our law."]).

Again, Chief Judge Kay notes that the reasoning offered by the majority in Hernandez very specifically fails to meet the extant precedents of the High Court. But, here is where it gets really good...

Simply put, fundamental rights are fundamental rights. They are not defined in terms of who is entitled to exercise them. Instead, the Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the fundamental right to marry must be afforded even to those who have previously been excluded from its scope--that is, to those whose exclusion from the right was "deeply rooted."...To those who appealed to history as a basis for prohibiting interracial marriage, it was simply inconceivable that the right of interracial couples to marry could be deemed "fundamental." Incredible as it may seem today, during the lifetime of every Judge on this Court, interracial marriage was forbidden in at least a third of American jurisdictions. In 1948, New York was one of only 18 states in the nation that did not have such a ban. By 1967, when Loving was decided, 17 states still outlawed marriages between persons of different races. Nevertheless, even though it was the ban on interracial marriage--not interracial marriage itself--that had a long and shameful national tradition, the Supreme Court determined that interracial couples could not be deprived of their fundamental
right to marry. Unconstitutional infringements on the right to marry are not limited to impermissible racial restrictions....The state law at issue here, like the law struck down in Loving, restricts an individual's right to marry the person of his or her choice.

Chief Judge Kay also criticizes the dishonest that is inherent to your argument...

The claim that marriage has always had a single and unalterable meaning is a plain distortion of history. In truth, the common understanding of "marriage" has changed dramatically over the centuries (see Br. of Professors of History and Family Law as Amici Curiae in Support of Plaintiffs). Until well into the nineteenth century, for example, marriage was defined by the doctrine of coverture, according to which the wife's legal identity was merged into that of her husband, whose property she became. A married woman, by definition, could not own property and could not enter into contracts.2 Such was the very "meaning" of marriage. Only since the mid-twentieth century has the institution of marriage come to be understood as a relationship between two equal partners, founded upon shared intimacy and mutual financial and emotional support. Indeed, as amici professors note, "The historical record shows that, through adjudication and legislation, all of New York's sex-specific rules for marriage have been invalidated save for the one at issue here" (Br. of Professors of History and Family Law as Amici Curiae in Support of Plaintiffs, at 2).

And here again Chief Judge Kay notes that the New York Court is ruling against the warnings in Lawrence...

In closing, you may deny the relevance of the Loving decision to this issue, but as the Chief Judge on the bench of the very Court you cite notes very specifically that this decision is inconsistent both with the precedents of the New York State Supreme Court AND of the United States Supreme Court. As Chief Judge Kay concluded...

It is uniquely the function of the Judicial Branch to safeguard individual liberties guaranteed by the New York State Constitution, and to order redress for their violation. The Court's duty to protect constitutional rights is an imperative of the separation of powers, not its enemy. I am confident that future generations will look back on today's decision as an unfortunate misstep.

...and with that sentiment I certainly agree.

percivale

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"cdesign proponentsists" - (LINK)

LiberalDaniel's picture

Hey, after over 1K reads, I only get 4 votes!? Come on guys! let me know how well/not well my article is. I know we all like to see how we rate in our articles, Im no different! lol.

Talk to you all later, Oh! And Stupid Huckabee won the caucus in Iowa!?!?!? What the hell!? doh! Well, at least Obama won, even though I am a strong Kucinich supporter! Yay Kucinich and Mike Gravel! woo hoo!

- Liberal Daniel
www.myspace.com/liberaldaniel

Scyze's picture
Member of the Progressive U Alumni AssociationVolunteer for the Progressive U Alumni Association

http://www.progressiveu.org/164923-listen-you-schmucks-heres-how-it-goes...

---
"Your comment doesn't make sense. Whats this about Paris hilton? What are you talking about? You don't make sense." - alenka
My Blog.

Your post was spot on! If this guy is our next president, America might as well kiss itself goodbye!

Your post was spot on! If this man becomes a representative of the American People, I'm heading to Canada as well!

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