Living your faith
There used to be so much to that phrase. People used to do it all the time. America was founded, not on secular principles, or even deistic principles, but on Christian theistic principles.
The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.
These were the words George Washington said in his letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson. There were also several other quotes from him:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"
"Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."
"Bless, O Lord the whole race of mankind, and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy Son, Jesus. Of all dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."
"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."
The draft of the circular letter is in the hand of a secretary, although the signature is Washington's. Some have called this concluding paragraph "Washington's Prayer." In it, he asked God to: "dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation."
George Washington as he resigned his commission as general of the Continental Army on December 23, 1783. "I consider it an indispensable duty to close this last solemn act of my official life by commending the interests of our dearest country to the protection of Almighty God and those who have the superintendence of them into His holy keeping."
These are the words of a true and devout Christian. Further, several documents were quite clear on it. The first Charter of Virginia stated:
We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of ALMIGHTY GOD, hereafter tend to the Glory of his DIVINE MAJESTY, in propagating of CHRISTIAN RELIGION to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and WORSHIP OF GOD…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear GOD the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our HEAVENLY FATHER hath not planted shall be rooted out.
Emphasis Added
The Mayflower Compact:
“Having undertaken, for the GLORY OF GOD, and advancement of the CHRISTIAN faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of GOD, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”
You might say that those were earlier documents by the Puritans who first came. But watch what later documents and people say:
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Christian beliefs crop up all over the place in our nation’s history, whether or not the public school system wants to admit it. More than half of the signers of the Constitution held the equivalent of a Bible Seminary degree, near to forty of them were pastors or deacons and only 2 of them were deists. It is not your history teacher or the society who tells you what happened. When you can walk to the Capitol’s courthouse and find the Ten Commandments engraved in the structure, and see “In God we trust” on the back of our currency. Or maybe find that the pledge of allegiance says “one nation, under God…”.
If you, seeing all this, can say that this country was not founded as a Christian nation, then you have a sad case of ignoring the evidence that is situated directly under your nose.
When you can walk to the Capitol’s courthouse and find the Ten Commandments engraved in the structure, and see “In God we trust” on the back of our currency.
A little actual study of our history as a nation would do you well, I think. Your opinion as it now stands in based on some pretty impressive inaccuracies.
Are you aware, for example, that our founders did not choose the phrase "in god we trust" as our nations motto. Rather, they chose the phrase "E Pluribus Unum" (it means, "One From Many") for that honor. IGWT didn't become our nations motto until 1956...one-hundred and eighty years after the founding our our country. Likewise, our original currency didn't advise consumer to trust in "god," but rather to MIND YOUR BUSINESS...
As for the frankly silly notion that the ten commandments represent some sort of basis for our county's laws or system of government, I would point out the most obvious rejection of that fallacy by noting that the first commandment from the bible, and the first article from our Bill of Rights diametrically oppose one another. The former, of course, instructs its followers to "have no other gods." The latter instructs our government that it may not make any law that "respects the establishment of religion."
In the words of one of those very founders that you malign with your poorly-informed attempts to revise the actual history of this country...
And as for the frankly silly idea that the 10 commandments served as the basis of our systems of law and government, I will let old T.J. handle that one, too...
Those systems of government that you attribute to the ancient Israelites actually originated in the earlier histories of the ancient Greek City states, and where passed to many of the Mediterranean cultures through the conquests of the Greek and Roman Empires. Your opinions have been shaped, no doubt, by reliance on unreliable, even revisionist sources. That is unfortunate, but it nonetheless falls to you to take a step back and engage in an little objective scholarship if you ever wish to be taken seriously in discussions of this sort.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Yes, I've changed my username from "percivale" to "Blackout." Go here if you want to know why.
...usual tirades, but I see that D.B. and Jsaj have done a pretty good job of refuting the poorly educated claims of this blog.
Good job, guys.
Blackout
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Yes, I've changed my username from "percivale" to "Blackout." Go here if you want to know why.
Rest in peace
yourfuneralguy
http://www.lowercostfuneral.com/rbrianblog
assume sinful nature of man...truly biblical concept...thus the separation of powers and system of checks and balances....You can disagree with the sinful nature of man or the concept. of sin but it is written in there.
I use the word sinful. It is a common word, especially for people growing up in the Christian tradition. Further more, the federalist papers were for wide-scale circulation among a religious population.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Rest in peace
yourfuneralguy
http://www.lowercostfuneral.com/rbrianblog
written by 2 major architects off our government.
Federalist papers were written by 2 major architects off our government.
True enough, though I must point out that the Federalists themselves were not representative of all, or even most early Americans. In fact, the Federalists and their Papers prompted such men as Thomas Jefferson and James Madison to call themselves Anti-Federalists in response to policies which they felt (and as the primary authors of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States, I think they stood in a good position to judge) ran contrary to the true character of our Nation and the principles upon which it was actually founded.
It is interesting to remember that the Federalist Papers opposed (for example) the passage of the Bill of Rights, which of course includes the famous Establishment Clause that is the first and most obvious rejection of the implication of religious foundations that you suggest. Yes, there were many people at the time of the founding who thought that the U.S. should have been based on "christian" principles, and that debate was no less troublesome to the populace then than it is today...but when it came time for our Founders to actually set pen to paper on the Constitution, and our Citizens and their Representatives to voice their opinions through their votes, the concepts you express were not among those which passed muster, and in the end did not make it into our Laws.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Yes, I've changed my username from "percivale" to "Blackout." Go here if you want to know why.
There's a problem with your statements and quotes. That problem is the assumption that the god mentioned is your god. In some instances, that implication is clear yes, but in many, the god mentioned is not specified. Also, with some of your quotes (the mayflower compact especially), that reffered to the founding of Massachussetes, which was theocratic until they were required, by the Constitution, to secularize the government. The other problem is that you didn't give your sources for any of your quotes, which would be nice.
You have another problem. Both "one nation under god" and "in god we trust" were added both to the pledge and the currency during the 50's in an anti-Comunist fervor.
You have two more problems. The first is the the failure to acknowledge that Christians (or people of any religion) can be secularists. The second is to ignore official United States documents.
Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
This was signed during the Presidency of John Adams.
And that, of course, is in addition to the first amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
Whatever else that says and means, it certainly reveals secularism in the US government.
The last question is, if this is a christian nation, why does the highest law in the land, the United States Constitution, make absolutely no mention of it?
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Christians can have secular interests, but in the case of the leaders of our country, and given the fact that the three branched government we have is only found once elsewhere in history (the book of Leviticus), as well as the multitude of quotes in our documents, and especially in the early educational materials like the readers they used (I have one of them) the evidence for them being devoted to a specific God (being YHWH, aka Yashua, and Jesus), as well as the testimony of their family (George Washington's daughter, for one) and friends, is all in one direction.
Wow, you answered one question while ignoring my one request. What are your sources, please? Where are you getting your information? How, if the US was supposed to be a Christian nation, do you explain the direct contradiction in an official document signed by the second president of the United States?
Also, where in Leviticus does it talk about a three branch government? And, seeing as the Israeli nation (and its Christian predecessors) were oligarchies, how does that bring us to the republicanism of the United States? Or maybe, just maybe, the founders were influenced by the pre-existing parliamentary system in Britain and the only successful (to a degree) large-scale Republic, Rome?
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
as for the Constitution, I already answered that, with it's sources.
Secondly, the Israeli nation, before Saul, was a theocratic democracy, to be the most accurate. It wasn't until Rome took over that they were an oligarchy. Remember, Jesus was HUGELY against it, going as far as accusing the Pharisees (one of your elite groups) of being hypocrites.
Thirdly, if anything, the parliamentary system of Britain was a fluke, hiding the oligarchy that it was.
"It was a monarchy. There were kings. And again, sources please."
DB just corrected me on this, however, the whole Judges thing is not a democracy.
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
"as for the Constitution, I already answered that, with it's sources."
No, you didn't. You listed a bunc of quotes, but said nothing about where you got them.
"Secondly, the Israeli nation, before Saul, was a theocratic democracy, to be the most accurate."
It was a monarchy. There were kings. And again, sources please.
"Remember, Jesus was HUGELY against it, going as far as accusing the Pharisees (one of your elite groups) of being hypocrites."
So what? Jesus was against the Romans controlling Israel. That doesn't mean he was a democrat (not reffering to the party). You know, he was, according to him or his followers King of the Jews.
"Thirdly, if anything, the parliamentary system of Britain was a fluke, hiding the oligarchy that it was."
The Parlimentary system in Britian was deeply flawed, yes. It was corrupt and still, at the time, left most of the power in the hands of the nobility. However, it was, at the time, the closest thing to a functioning democratic system. Obviously, we didn't base our government entirely on the British system, but the founders were influenced by it.
Finally, you still haven't answered the question as to why, if we were intended to be a Christian nation, an official government document, passed by a government that included founders, said clearly that we weren't. So, why did it say that?
"Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos."
Homer Simpson
Rest in peace
yourfuneralguy
http://www.lowercostfuneral.com/rbrianblog
the country was founded under Christian Principles.
... but I don't. And the reason is that it simply isn't true.
What IS true is that most of the founding fathers did think of themselves as Christian, they belonged to a variety of Christian sects. But so what? The founding fathers were also men of SECULAR interests. Many much more so than Christian. Just because they were nominal Christians doesn't mean that the country was founded on Christian principles.
Right wing religious fanatics like sculleywr above like to claim that but they wrong. And to a disturbing degree their "evidence" is made up. In a reply to another person sculleywr writes I love how you leave out the fact that 38% of the Constitution can be sourced directly to the Bible,. I have just reread the Constitution and I think I know the bible pretty well. I find precious little that can be "sourced" back to it. In fact, I find some VERY IMPORTANT things that go against its intent.
In an effort to find out where sculleywr would come up with such nonsense, I found this link to a discussion about a claim made by David Barton concerning 94% of the writings of the founding fathers were influenced by the bible (34% were direct quotations from the bible and 60% were conclusions based on the bible). However, David Barton seems to be noted for overexaggerating Washington's Christianity including the first Washington quote that sculleywr gives above ..."It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible". There is no evidence that Washington ever said that either
For the 34% figure that Barton comes up with he references a University of Houston study, but he apparently makes up the 60% number. Furthermore, this is just in their personal correspondence and as the UH study showed much of that was references to sermons they had heard. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the Constitution, our founding document.
If we look at the part of the Constitution that can reasonably attributed to our founding fathers, ... the preamble, the seven Articles that set up the form of Government, and the first 10 amendments (The Bill of Rights)" we get little to nothing that directly sources to the bible. Let's look:
THE PREAMBLE:
If one wants to push one may claim the word "Blessings" has a biblical reference to it. But the bible does not bless liberty.
ARTICLE 1: This article gives the structure and powers of the legislative branch of government. There is nothing traceable back to the bible there.
ARTICLE 2: This article gives the structure and powers of the legislative branch of government. There is nothing traceable back to the bible. Furthermore section 1.8 specifies the oath of office
Note that there is no reference to a deity here. That certainly goes against the intent of the bible in which all rulers ruled by the grace of God.
ARTICLE 3: This article establishes and gives the powers of the Judicial Branch. There is nothing traceable back to the bible in it.
ARTICLE 4: This article deals with the states, the responsibilities they have to each other, the responsibilities of federal government to the states, how to add more states etc. Nothing biblical here.
ARTICLE 5: This article describes the process in which the Constitution can be altered. Again nothing biblical
ARTICLE 6:This article establishes the Constitution as the law of the land. In Clause 3 it says
This is the NO RELIGIOUS OATHS clause. That too certainly goes against biblical teachings.
ARTICLE 7: This article discusses ratification of the Constitution. Nothing biblical here.
That is it for the Articles. Let's go over the first 10 Amendments
AMENDMENT 1:
This is the biggie. It specifically states that Congress is to stay OUT of religion. To most thinking people this plainly establishes a separation of Church and State. But because those words aren't there religous wackaloons seem to think that it doesn't. But the fact of the matter is that the Supreme Court whose job it is to interpret the Constitution has ruled time and again that it does. But in any case, the idea that Congress should make no law respecting religion is certainly against the intent of the bible. All rulers were expected to subjugate themselves to God.
AMENDMENT 2:
Nothing biblical here.
AMENDMENT 3:
Nothing biblical here.
AMENDMENT 4:
Nothing biblical here.
AMENDMENT 5:
Nothing biblical here.
AMENDMENT 6:
Nothing biblical here.
AMENDMENT 7:
Nothing biblical here.
AMENDMENT 8:
Nothing biblical here.
AMENDMENT 9:
Nothing biblical here.
AMENDMENT 10:
Nothing biblical here either.
These are the articles and amendments that one can reasonably attribute to the founding fathers. THEY ALL PERTAIN TO SECULAR CONCERNS or are designed to keep religious influences out of government. America was populated by people who came here to escape religious persecution. Pre-independence America was punctuated by religious strife between the colonies. There were actual wars between some of the sects. And all these sects were Christian. The people KNEW that they had to bind together to cooperate in order to make the country work. They knew that rule by religious dogma was NOT a good thing. They specifically set up a secular government ... not one based on religious principles at all. So even though the individuals may have been mostly Christian, they knew that a SECULAR government was the way to go.
Cheers,
DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Rest in peace
yourfuneralguy
http://www.lowercostfuneral.com/rbrianblog
framework is interesting
.
Ok, it would have been a lot easier if you had made that in and of itself a blog. However, if you look at the set up of the government, you will find the same thing in the book of Leviticus and in a more condensed form in Isaiah. Each tribe had its own representatives, two groups for issues secluded to the tribe itself (local senate and house of representatives) comprised of representatives from each city and family in the tribe (two from each city (senate), and one for each family in the tribe(house of Representatives)). each tribe also had two delegates that convened with the other 22 delegates from other tribes. These delegates were generally the head representative from each of the two tribe elders (from the two former groups). Aside from these, there was another group of elected officials, twelve in all, called the Sanhedrin. While the groups described former to this were civil issues, the Sanhedrin were on the criminal justice side of things and are the inspiration for our Supreme Court. Anything that could not be resolved by a tribe's own representatives as far as criminal cases went, was taken before the Sanhedrin. After Joshua and Caleb died, the representatives voted in a new pair of leaders for the country. This all continued until the end of the book of Judges, and was sketched out in Leviticus LOOONG before the Constitution.
The right to bear arms (or arm bears if you like) is from the following passages:
II SAM 1:17-18 PSA 144:1 LK 11:21 MATT 26:47-52
JOSH 4:12-13; 6:7-9 LEV 17:13 PRO 12:27
Which gives the reasons:
1. TO PROMOTE PEACE—Israel was disarmed—thought to be weak by their enemies. They took their farm implements in view of the Philistines to show them that they were armed. They did not want trouble—arms help to keep the peace. I Sam 13:17-21
2. TO DEFEND OUR FAMILIES—Lawful use of weapons by God-fearing individuals. Governments have mad war against civilians—Lot was taken captive. Abraham responded in correct Christian manner. Armed his trained servants born in his home. Where did he get the arms?? He had them. When did they learn how to use them??? He taught them. Abraham met Melchizedek after the battle---BLESSED HIM. God was pleased. He used his arms in the right way to protect his family. Gen 14:14-20
3. TO DEFEND OURSELVES—A. Jesus sent them out. He was there to protect them. Now, he was soon to leave—when they go out, get a weapon—more important than clothes they were to wear---JESUS HAD TO DIE---THEY DID NOT. The presence of a weapon is to deter crime. Lk 22:35
Now, I could go on, but I would like to actually get something done.
Perhaps you are right here. I go back and forth as to whether or not to make a new blog or just post a reply. The advantage of making it a reply is that future people reading the blog can get an opposing viewpoint without having to transfer to a different link.
No ... you wont. At least you wont unless you are prone to see what isn't there.
Leviticus has 27 chapters
Chapters 1-7 tells the proper procedure for making different offerings.
Chapters 8-10 talks about Aaron and his sons performing some sacrificial ceremonies.
Chapters 11-16 talks about laws concerning purity and impurity
Chapters 17-26 is referred to as the Holiness Code. It is here that we find all the terrible laws of Leviticus that no sane person of today would consider enforcing.
Chapter 27 talks about laws concerning vows.
None of that pertains to our form of Government. It simply isn't there.
Isaiah has 66 chapters written by at least 3 different people. It is too long to go into detail so I will just say that the original Prophet Isaiah was writing in the last part of the 8th Century BCE. At that time Israel and Judah formed the divided Kingdoms. The operative word here is ... KINGDOM. That is NOT what the Constitution says is it.
You are just making this crap up, aren't you?
The bible talks extensively about the leaders of each tribe. It calls them ELDERS. You do know what ELDERS mean, don't you? They were men who had been around long enough to be considered wise. These were the decision-makers for each tribe. And it is nothing like our form of government.
Numbers 11:16 is what you SHOULD be referencing.
This establishes the original SANHEDRIN (also known as the GREAT SANHEDRIN). Note there are 70 ... 71 if you include Moses. This became the model that Israel followed. There was a single GREAT SANHEDRIN consisting of 71 ELDERS. One was the head guy, one was the high priest, and one was vice-head guy. The rest were just regular members.
Each city could have its own Sanhedrin. These were known as the lesser Sanhedrin. There were 23 members to this and they were called Judges. Judges ruled the city.
If you were going to liken the Sanhedrin system to our form of Government the best fit would be the judiciary since they heard disputes between people and based their judgement on biblical law (ie the TORAH). But it also had executive and legislative branch functions. That is NOT the inspiration for our judiciary by any means.
Let's take a look at those passages:
II Samuel 1:17-18
Psalms 144:1
Luke 11:21
Matthew 26:47-52
Joshua 4:12-13
Joshua 6:7-9
Leviticus 17:13
Proverbs 12:27
So you REALLY think these passages formed the inspiration for:
How about this as an alternative theory ... the real inspiration for the 2nd Amendment was the fact that we had recently been through a WAR with Great Britian in which citizen soldiers had played a deciding role in the outcome.
Jeez Louise, and by the way ...several of your references make no sense in the context you are trying to present them and your Matthew reference even argues more AGAINST the 2nd amendment than it does for it.
(1) This is meaningless mishmash. It has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment
The intent of the 2nd Amendment is to PROTECT OUR COUNTRY.
(2) Even if it were relevant to the 2nd Amendment, it obviously was not the inspiration for the 2nd Amendment. A basic need of every country regardless of the bible is to defend itself. The 2nd Amendment is part of our Constitution's response to that SECULAR problem. There is absolutely no indication that it is biblically motivated.
The secret to getting things done, is to do them right. Don't bullshit your way through it. If you do that then you have indeed wasted your time. And you HAVE indeed wasted your time ... this is perhaps the biggest pile of bullshit I have read in a LONG time.
DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
Actually, I cite an archaeologist by the name of Scott Carrol, who has been head of 5 archaeological digs in Giza and been part of many digs in Israel as well, for the government layout.
Just a note that I made a mistake on the exact book, it is found in the Torah, but it is mostly in Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy where you find the government layout of pre-monarchy Israel.
(1) Scott Carroll is a faculty member of Cornerstone University in Grand Rapids, MI. CornerstoneUniversity is a small religious university in which ... All subjects are taught with the trinitarian belief in the triune God and the literal interpretation of the Bible. That's not a good sign.
I can find absolutely nothing on Google Scholar published by him. Furthermore, everything you have said is ... crap. So I have no reason believe Scott Carroll is anything other than a deluded evangelical preacher. Speaking of which, it seems that he DOES have his own ministry
(2) There is nothing in Exodus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy which served as an inspiration for our government either.
Cheers,
DB
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If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. - Anatole France
DB, I'm a Christian, but I still adore your arguments and take a lot from them. Hopefully not everyone dismisses your arguments simply because they are Christian and too closed-minded to realize that there are alternative viewpoints and ways of life.
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Your Tongue is a Rudder; It Steers the Whole Ship, Sends Your Words Past Your Lips or Keeps Them Safe Behind Your Teeth... [Brand New]