I was reading yesterday, that one of the nine most common values among Americans was anti-communism. Of course, this data was compiled in 1987, however, it struck me odd that this was such a common sentiment, up there along with thier religous values which were placed at number one. I wonder how many people are actually informed about communism? People know roughly how communism HAS worked in the past, which has generally involved opression, but this is related to the facist leaders who control these communist nations. Communism itself is not the problem, in fact, if humans were not the greedy, selfish, avaricious beings that we are, communism has the potential to work quite well. Americans simply do not understand Communism, thus they fear it. It appears that we simply think that being anti- communist is holding up American ideals and fighting the good fight. But is it truly? Is the capialistic society we live in really any better, or do we just suppose it is because it is what we have always known. I have personally been incredibly interested in Communism since I was a sophmore in high school and we read Utopia which contained various princliples of Socialism. I know that I do not know every minute detail about it, however, I have taken the time to familiarize myself with the concept, and therefore, I have no fear of it. I just wonder how many people are even aware of who Karl Marx is and what it REALLY is that he proposed. I propose that Americans fear facism more than they fear communism. But that just goes to show you the ignorance of the general population.
Anti-Communism in America
By sodamnbeautiful - Posted on September 8th, 2007
If someone came out and said a good thing about the Taliban or Al'Queada, what sort of reaction do you think they would get? People today don't hate or fear communists (for the most part). Today, it's terrorists.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
It's true, terrorists are feared today, and quite honestly, I too fear an individual who caries out plans to bomb wherever my present location may be. I think that fear is different than that of communism however, because in this situation, we have a fear of an individual, not of an entire type of government. And just because one says they are a communist does not give a wealth of information on their ideals. On the other hand, if someone is found to have bombs with them and has plans for dispersing them, I think thier plans can be deduced. I do think many Americans have simply come to fear any Islamic person though, and that is sheer ignorance of a culture they do not understand.
True, there is a difference. However, people who are described as terrorists are described a having a motive of wanting to destroy our way of life. (I think they want us to stop meddling in their part of the world, but that's just me.) The same was thought of Communists. Probably, that was more true of them than the Islamic Extremeist terrorists.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
I agree. Communism, the way it was proposed by Karl Marx, is actually a very good idea. It falls apart in the real world, though, thanks to the human factor. I don't think a lot of people realize that the idea Communism is based around something we're taught at a very young age: sharing. Sharing the workload, sharing the profits, sharing resources. Everyone gets their fair share, no one gets any more or any less than anyone else.
It's unfortunate that people are greedy and lazy, or it might actually work.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Some aspects of Communism aren't quite so good, both in principle and the real world, most notably the fact that Marx said there's a need for a violent revolution. That isn't so nice.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
America was founded on a violent revolution, and we're a capitalistic society.
What's the difference?
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
None. That's not the point though. Marx said that a violent revolution was a prerequisite to communism. That isn't a good thing on or off paper. That's the point.
"Every man makes a god of his own desire."
-Virgil
When you make that drastic of a change in a portion of and already established society, be it economic or political, chances are, there's going to be some sort of violent revolution. That's pretty much an inevitability unless the changes are made over centuries.
You're right, a violent revolution in and of itself isn't really a good thing, but the outcomes aren't always bad. That's what a revolution is about, though, striving for a desired outcome that's different from what is currently in place.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
i've always been a little confused about communism. Knowing that the fear of communism exists, i never took the time to reseach what it is, its pro and cons. I do think our capitalist society isn't the best because there are definetly people who are unhappy with it. Everyone has the opportunity to climb the social ladder, but that increases hatefulness and competitiveness that makes our minds sick. In a communist country, are their always dictators or single rulers?
Communism is supposed to be a classless system, so no, there isn't even supposed to be a ruler. The closest that actually comes to communism are some native tribes, where everyone is considered equal and share the work.
Communism seems to work best in practice in small groups, but falls apart in large settings, such as nations, because someone tends to rise above the others and become a ruler.
Karl Marx
Communism
Classless Society
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
I am asking you to read this objectively, not emotionally, it is contrary to your proposed idea, but please listen. The proposal that communism is okay is very, very mistaken, both philisophically and historically.
First of all, communism works on the premise that all are equal. The problem is that all are NOT equal, that is a fact of nature. Further, the vast majority of healthy humanity has a natural desire to succeed, to be better, to do more. This is why communism MUST end in repression, because it is, by it's nature, contradictory to human nature. Any show of individuality is dangerous, because it ignites more individuality, so the only way for a communist system to work is to remove the individuals from it's system. This is not a 'maybe,' this is totally necesarry to the very nature of the communist idea. This is why communist countries have to kill, imprison, or publicly humiliate anybody with contradictory ideas.
Now, the implication that communism hasn't worked in the past is a gross understatement. Stalin killed 75-100 million people, that is 3-4x the number the nazi's killed. China has loosened some area's of it's economic system, but it is still a terribly repressive government. There has not been one single example of a communist country that ended up being a 'really nice place to live.' I don't recall any American's risking their lives to build makeshift rafts to cross the ocean and go to Cuba, do you?
Capitalism is not perfect, but it is ahuman system, and no human system can be perfect, because humans are imperfect. The question is which system allows for the greatest range of human freedom and prosperity, which is democracy and capitalism. The very fact that you are talking about this in a public online forum attests to how incredible it is to live in this system. Nobody is pulling you out of your bed, nobody is putting you up against a wall and shooting you.
For God's sake, do you know how fortunate you are? And you want to just throw it away? To some system that has failed over, and over, and over again throughout history? I strongly suggest that you think these things over carefully, logically, before you go around suggesting that communism is a good idea. You're not the first to do so. If you can find historical examples of succesful communism, if you can manage to logically justify a human system that is contradictory to human nature, then by all means give up your identity and become part of the collective, until then, think about it, and don't take the irrational words of people who write things like, "I think communism is good," or "Jesus was a communist" (which is particuarly disgusting seeing as Stalin killed millions for being Christians). See how many people can logically explain how this philosophy is backed up by any kind of reasoning OR historical data. I ask you to do this, seriously, because this is my country too and before you go around espousing a system that will take away my freedom and my family's freedom I ask that you understand exactly what you're talking about.
Stalin didn't kill people because he was a communist, he killed them because the dictatorship that arose was corrupt. The same with Hitler (and he was just insane).
Communism isn't inherently evil or wrong. Actually, it's a large scale version of what we used to get told as kids -- sharing and fairness. Theoretically, everyone gets an equal share, everything is supposed to be fair.
Humanity's tendency to compete and to be followers to a leader are what brings communism down on a large scale. The people who work hard don't think it's fair that they get the same pay as the people who don't do anything, so they stop working too. Someone with enough finesse works their way into a national leadership position and uses what it basically ultimate power to control the country.
The idea of communism (or a slight variation thereof) can actually work very well on a small scale, such as a family, dorm, or apartment with roommates situation. Everyone shares everything from food to toiletries (within reason, I don't think share toothbrushes is a great idea) to the bath towels to chores (this one works best if everyone has a similar level of tidiness).
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
I also want to make a comment to the person who said that the terrorists just want us out of their country, as if they're just a bunch of good old boys looking out for the common good.
The Muslim extremists declared their jihad before American involvement, their goal, their EXPRESSED goal, as you can easily read if you actually took the time to study a topic instead of just shoot your mouth off about it, is to return the Middle East and eventually the whole world to a purely Muslim state. The primary cause they fight this war on is that they do not approve of a seperation of church and state, they want religious law to be above all else.
When you read the news, if you read the news, maybe pay attention to the fact that most of the suicide bombings aren't even directed at American troops, often not even Iraqi or Afghani troops, they are directed at the populace itself, the average Iraqi or Afghani just trying to form a neighborhood watch, or a townhall. The war didn't start with the U.S. and it won't end with the U.S. These people can't be reasoned with, they are fanatic, they are willing to die and to kill any number of innocent, uninvolved people to achieve their goals.
Every day car bombs are set off that kill dozens (in a couple cases hundreds) of innocent Iraqi people, and you sit there, some sheltered punk who doesn't know anything abouthe world, obviously doesn't even read about the issues, and proclaim that the terrorists just want the big bad U.S. out of their country. The U.S. has done a lot of stupid stuff in this war, but to imply that it's this countries fault that the Muslim extremists declared a jihad is absurd and repulsive.
At least the people on here calling for communism are just regurgitating a popular 'progressive' cliche, but what you suggest is just demented. Maybe stop puking up everything you hear around school and start actually investigating the real story behind things and you won't be trying to let sadistic mass murderers who support returning to a system where women are stoned to death for not wearing veils off the hook.
I think you're talking to me.... My point is that they want US to leave them alone. That's what they want from US.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
When you find that group of people, let the rest of the world know. They don't exist on anything other than a 1 on 1 scale.
You said that Communism 'has worked' in the past. Perhaps you call the extermination of 100 million people over 70 years (then blaming it on 'bad weather) working, I consider it a human rights travesty.
Sugesting that Communism is a good way to go because it can work is, to me anyway, vastly ignoring what Communism has done in this world.
The Kibbutz in Israel are a form of working Communism. The reason that it works, however, is for two reasons, I think. One, it is very small scale and two, you can leave at any time. I agree that it has plainly failed in any larger situation.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
A small group practicing communism is not the same as a nation based on it.
There are communes here in the United States as well, and most monestaries function in that way.
however, it is always voluntary, and you can leave... that is where national communism is vastly different. (That and national communism always exists to benefit the leader.)
I agree that it is vastly different from Communism on the national scale.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
"People know roughly how communism HAS worked in the past, which has generally involved oppression, but this is related to the fascist leaders who control these communist nations. Communism itself is not the problem, in fact, if humans were not the greedy, selfish, avaricious beings that we are, communism has the potential to work quite well."
But humans are "greedy, selfish, avaricious beings" as well as any number of traits that make utopian ideal societies impossible.
What you fail to grasp is that it is not the dictatorship that makes communist systems so brutal. It is communism itself.
The ideology (as you so readily admit) does not account for the human person as he is, but rather as communism wants him to be/become. (the NEW man)
As such it is inherently in-human. That is anti-human. Dictatorship and brutality & totalitarianism become NECCESARY in order to achieve its goals.
Exactly. Under Communism, the people are expected to live selflessly for the State (That, in and of itself, ought to be a red flag of oppression that should make anyone who has tasted freedom shudder with rage). When people do NOT live selflessly (after all, if I get paid X whether I give my all or just sit there and pick my nose, there is no incentive to work hard, or at all.), then they must be made to, or else the entire society fails.
The reason why Capitalism (and the Capitalistic Democratic Republic we have, specifically) works is because those who do not work, do not earn. Those who work hard achieve more. If you do not like your current situation, you can (through hard work and sacrifice) achieve more.
The idea being that in order for people to work together and achieve more as a group, they must be rewarded for hard work.
ALL of that is negated in Communism, which fails when people are only 99.9% committed to the goal.
All you say above is true. However, when dealing with those who have romatisized communism & are familiar with pure Marxism like sodamnbeautiful its important to go beyond a mere economic analysis.
The perpecity to not treat man as he IS but rather as you would like him to be (at the very heart of the system) leads to a perpencity for inhumanity. The goal becomes more important than the man, they become means to an end (de-humanized).
On your point (economic) reminds me of the old saw that the societ worker was known to utter: "We pretend to work & they pretend to pay us" There is no incentive within the system for the individual. Productivity can only be inspired by subordination.
Those who have romanticized communism either willfully ignore or are not old enough to have experienced the reality of communism. As the old saying goes: Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.
And often that becomes subordination by force.
Thank God for the 2nd Amendment.
I hope you two speak on this issue more, to other people, because there is a really disturbing trend in people (especially first and second year college students) to go around regurgitating the virtue of communism. The problem is that most people are so ill equipped with the knowledge of the history of communism and the ideal of capitalism (and it IS an ideal, not just another word for greed.) that they accept these dimwitted socialist arguments blindly.
Anyway, I just hope the two of you keep it up, and with equally sound logic which is, to any rational person, inarguable.
College students echo their professors. Professors tend to be pretty liberal on a wide scale and have a long history of supporting communism.
First example that comes to mind: Democrat and 'Collegiate" support of Alger Hiss.
in no way translates to anythign that could viably work in a nation or a state, so why try to compare them?
As for communism not being inherently 'evil', that is plainly wrong, as I already proved in my first post. We'll use a simple definition of 'evil': anything which causes great harm to a human being or a human society. Now I know that's a ridiculously simple definition, but I'm sure you can agree that it works adequately for the subject of exploring the morality of a policitical system.
communism is in opposition to human nature. That is why it IS inherently evil. This has already been explained a couple times, but one more time: the system cannot work because it is a human system and yet is not consistent to human behavior, therefore it can only work by beating the 'ideal' into people's heads, it can only work through violence, which means that it will inevitably come to cause great harm to many human beings and the whole society. So, by the definition of 'evil' as anything which causes great harm to a human being or human society, communism is logically evil. That's not an opinion,it's logic. This doesn't even touch the many, many other reasons why communism is evil, nor am I allowing myself to go on a rant about how absurd it is to look at an idea that has caused untold human suffering and say, 'well, maybe this time....' Come on, for god's sake, it's just a bad idea. I know what you're saying about working with roommates or whatever, but that isn't communism, it's just called normal human decency, cooperation, there's no need to try to fit it into the defintion of communism, to somehow try to validate it that way.
If you honestly think about these arguments, plus the ones posted above mine, I think you'll see that communism has no rational basis for success.
Please reread what I said and note that I acknowledge that it does not work on a large scale. It does, however, work on a small scale, such as a dorm situation, or even as large as a monastery. Those situations are, however, small scale and voluntary. So yes, it does work, but only under certain circumstances and not on a large scale.
Being greedy or competitive isn't necessarily human nature. While it does manifest in quite a large portion of the human population, it does not, however manifest in all people, which is why it is possible for communism to work on a small scale, but not on a large one.
Perhaps you should look at the links that I provided a while back on this very same blog and look more into the theory of communism as Karl Marx had originally detailed it, instead of spewing the propaganda you've been fed through the media.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
watch a 2 year old kid in a room full of toys and 1 other 2 year old kid.
Fights tend to ensue when 1 kid takes a toy to play with it that the other kid thinks is 'theirs'
Greed is definately a part of human nature, as is averice, sloth, vanity, etc. etc. etc.
They are something that age and wisdom can hopefully attempt to overcome, with a bit of maturity and discipline.
I have re-read your previous posts as you have requested.
“it does not, however manifest in all people, which is why it is possible for communism to work on a small scale, but not on a large one”
I’m afraid no one can honestly say that “communism works on a small scale” The Israeli Kibbutz failed dramatically. Even this voluntary & small scale level of that ideal feel apart in multiple painful ways.
It was precisely Marxists distaste for the family as a competitor to solidarity that drove the Kibbutz experiment apart. Raising children communally and separating parents from children as a norm pitted natural human paternal & maternal instinct against the Marxist Ideal.
This is very much the norm in Marxist history. Its loathing of sexual exclusivity, monogamy and marriage is one horrible facet of it in-humanity.
The works of Engel’s in particular helped support ideologically the forced separation of children from their families during collectivization, underpinned the removal of children from parents as a form of punishment & forcing women into the (collective) work against tradition & their own desire.
The Kibbutz today operates in nothing like its original design or manifestation. Its remains more of a leftist gated community with subsidized housing than anything that can be described as communist.
Also: “and look more into the theory of communism as Karl Marx had originally detailed it, instead of spewing the propaganda you've been fed through the media.”
What exactly is that “propaganda” . You have countless examples of experiments in Marxism from multiple regions, applications, & cultures. These regimes are the most hateful and oppressive the world has seen. From the police state of Cuba, to the failed autocracy of North Korea to the totalitarian Chinese.
My Friend: Pure Marxist theory has driven the worst human rights abuses & genocidal rampages known to man.
I suggest: It is this very same romantic utopian ideal & egalitarian fervor that you are defending. Those who supported and maintained these horrors where average human beings like yourself.
Do you have any reason to believe that you love affair with Marxism is any less dangerous than theirs.
You have countless examples of experiments in Marxism from multiple regions, applications, & cultures. These regimes are the most hateful and oppressive the world has seen. From the police state of Cuba, to the failed autocracy of North Korea to the totalitarian Chinese.
Much of which has been colored by the media, especially during the Cold War, where people equated communism with the dictatorship that generally comes from it.
Do you have any reason to believe that you love affair with Marxism is any less dangerous than theirs.
I don't have a "love affair" with Marxism. I simply believe that the idea, while flawed and far from perfect, isn't as evil as many people believe. Does it work on anything other than a small, voluntary scale? No. Is it the evil incarnate so many people make it out to be? No.
-- quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Dragonwolf & ALL
“Much of which has been colored by the media, especially during the Cold War, where people equated communism with the dictatorship that generally comes from it.”
People did not “equated communism with the dictatorship that generally comes from it” communism intellectually inspired, drove, under girded, provides the rational for, is the literal and spiritual deposit of….
ALL THOSE DICTATORSHIPS…
“I don't have a "love affair" with Marxism. I simply believe that the idea, while flawed and far from perfect, isn't as evil as many people believe. Does it work on anything other than a small, voluntary scale? No.”
There is no “small voluntary scale communism” That’s simply communalism or community. (Its like calling the family a communist system)
Communism is a lot more in-depth and fleshed out intellectually & historically then the whitewash version you seem to believe has been mistreated.
“Is it the evil incarnate so many people make it out to be? No.”
I’m afraid it is. In fact it’s much worse than the academy & contemporary media often portray. It continues to be a world menace. The locust of that ideology is the radical egalitarianism you have romanticized. Communism is – at its central and inescapable core- a Godless, anti-human, ruthless, totalitarian spiritual drive that has been (arguably) the worlds worst evil.
Jeffs
"There is no bigger cliche than the first year college student who comes home and haughtily declares, "Actually, communism is the ideal form of government, it only doesn't work because of human nature" or some similar dribble, regurgitated propaganda. "
I really could not have said it better myself. It’s almost like an insane self parody.
One (of many) aspects pro-communist posters don’t seem to understand is that the communism always operated as more than an economic system. It is a cultural/social/theological system.
"There is no “small voluntary scale communism”" Yes there is. In Israel, there are small communes called Kibbutz's. They are small and membership is voluntary. However, they operate in a communist way internally.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche
Jsaj
"Yes there is. In Israel, there are small communes called Kibbutz's. They are small and membership is voluntary. However, they operate in a communist way internally."
The following is from my post (above) and adresses the Kibbutz's. You may have missed it.
I’m afraid no one can honestly say that “communism works on a small scale” The Israeli Kibbutz failed dramatically. Even this voluntary & small scale level of that ideal feel apart in multiple painful ways.
It was precisely Marxists distaste for the family as a competitor to solidarity that drove the Kibbutz experiment apart. Raising children communally and separating parents from children as a norm pitted natural human paternal & maternal instinct against the Marxist Ideal.
This is very much the norm in Marxist history. Its loathing of sexual exclusivity, monogamy and marriage is one horrible facet of it in-humanity.
The works of Engel’s in particular helped support ideologically the forced separation of children from their families during collectivization, underpinned the removal of children from parents as a form of punishment & forcing women into the (collective) work against tradition & their own desire.
The Kibbutz today operates in nothing like its original design or manifestation. Its remains more of a leftist gated community with subsidized housing than anything that can be described as communist.
Now, that's really just amusing that you try to say that I got a logical, rational argument from mass media propaganda. I could understand that if I came on and said, "capitalsim is good, communism is bad." Give me a break.
Now, as for your links, I have no need to go your links, I've read the Communist Manifesto, and I assure I have ample knowledge of the subject. At one point in my life I believed what you are saying, exactly.
The main point is, I don't need to follow links, if your argument has any logical or historical evidence then you should be able to express it adequately yourself.
I think that my illustration of how any system that is contrary to human nature is inherently wrong, evil, doomed to fuck up, however you want say it, was clearly laid out. I won't go into it again.
Another big point, and the reason I take so much of my time writing on these things like this, is that communism is presented as this revolutionary idea, this romantic notion that people would realize was really the Truth if only they weren't such greedy goddamn capitalist pigs, but the theory of communism has absolutely no rational basis nor historical evidence of success. Communism is constanstly espoused with the word 'should,' 'could', it's all based on this twisted, blind idealism, and the problem is it isn't this fringe, revolutionary belief, it's proposed constantly in this country, particuarly by educators and the entertainment industry. There is no bigger cliche than the first year college student who comes home and haughtily declares, "Actually, communism is the ideal form of government, it only doesn't work because of human nature" or some similar dribble, regurgitated propaganda. NOthing is regurgitated propaganda if the person has a clear explanation, with some basis of philisophical soundness and historical example. to say that my argument is propaganda is silly, that's like saying that 2+2=4 is propaganda. So, I'm listening, honestly, if you can come up with a sound reason for Communism, and an example of how it actually worked, go for it. I will not argue an inarguable thesis.
Also, think of how silly it is that you accuse me of using mass media propaganda, and you then, instead of proposing a sensible argument, directed me to links to the forms of propaganda that you subscribe to. Come on, seriously now...
Oh, and lancekates, I thought I saw you won some kind of scholarship or something (I wasn't aware that this website did that), congratulations. I'm amazed you're still in school, personally.
Can you please use the reply button at the bottom of comments to indicate who you are talking to. Thanks.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
Friedrich Nietzsche