Separation of Church & State
In today’s society, we are continually bombarded by news concerning how important it is for our public schools to distance themselves from any form of religion. The argument could also be made that the one religion under the most scrutiny and attack happens to be Christian. I am not defining here the word Christianity, but the concept specific to the news itself. This news article is (perhaps) the latest to hit the airwaves, and should be considered downright ridiculous when we look closer at the facts of it: (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=61767).
If you are too lazy to check out the news link above, let me recap in a minimal amount of words… A public school teacher is being sued because he will not remove his personal bible from the TOP of his desk in his classroom. No, he is not using it to preach to the students, no, he does not hold public prayer vigils, no, he doesn’t use the bible in any way within the duties of his teachings; it’s only for his PERSONAL use.
Hey… If it’s personal, why then doesn’t he keep it personal, and ‘do his bible thing’ outside of class? Good question, but maybe his drawers are too full… How the heck do I know, and I personally don’t care… it isn’t the point! How is it that the world (more specifically in this case - the US public school system) is so concerned that someone may become ‘converted’ to Christianity by SEEING a Bible on someone’s desk. Oh yeah, I also forgot that there needs to be a separation of church and state, and having a Bible in a public school is against the law??!!??!?!. Get over it. I have NEVER seen, nor heard of a legal case brought against anyone who was either reading, or holding, or having the Koran or some other religious text sitting on their desk, or in any other plain sight. Why then is Christianity so much of a threat to some people?
Maybe I should just change the subject of this post from the Bible ‘issue’ to that of the ACLU… hmmm… future blog here we come. Nowhere in the constitution does it say that I need to have personal reading material hidden from view, or that I cannot speak of; or mention, let alone have anything related to a particular religion in the presence of other people. I truly believe that people are either must be so desperate for cash (lets blame Bush while we are being so sarcastic here shall we?) they somehow see the easy money in suing (let alone a judicial system which actually allows it), or that people are actually concerned that their children, or maybe themselves, are going to somehow see a change in their life based on SEEING the world’s bestselling book entitled the “Bible”.
John Stossel really did say it right… “Give me a break!” (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=124326&page=1)
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The argument could also be made that the one religion under the most scrutiny and attack happens to be Christian.
I don't necessarily agree that it's under the most attack, per se, though our definitions may be different here. In either case, the religion is under the most scrutiny, at least, because its members have brought it on themselves. They are a very vocal community. With a general habit of belittling people for their "sins," it's no wonder people push back. Now, that's not to say all Christians do that, but the vocal few put a stigma on the whole.
How is it that the world (more specifically in this case - the US public school system) is so concerned that someone may become ‘converted’ to Christianity by SEEING a Bible on someone’s desk.
These are pretty much the same people that are afraid of being "converted" away from Christianity by walking into a multi-faith (including Pagan) bookstore. They fear that because they are so afraid of being converted away that people of other faiths have the same fear and they'll get "persecuted" for it.
Yes, that makes very little sense, but from what I've seen, society as a whole, and particular religious institutions generally don't make a lot of sense.
I think, too, why people don't get as upset about the Qur'an or the Hindu texts or books from some other religion is because most people in this country are Christians, so the other books are seen more as "novelty items," where the Bible is a "holy text," and therefore, holds more weight than the others.
While I believe in the separation of church and state, I think that even public schools should offer a comparative religions course. It should give students an objective look at some of the major religions. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the Pagan religions, Hindu, Buddhism, just to name a few, could be included.
Of course, then people would complain because their kids are being taught about other religions, when theirs is the only true path, so the ones being covered are of the devil and wrong and evil and...
The only cure for ignorance, fear, and discrimination is knowledge, though I think some people fear even that.
I am treated as evil by people who claim that they are being oppressed because they are not allowed to force me to practice what they do. ~D. Dale Gulledge
I appreciate your comments.
Your last sentence talks about ignorance... How true. Ignorance by itself is something to fear both as the recipient and the giver.
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http://progressiveu.org/blog/profstevevo
"Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?” (Sun Tzu)
I'm still waiting for somebody to point out where we find these words about separation of church and state in the Constitution. I've read the Fist Amendment repeatedly and it says something completely different.
I don't see how a personal Bible on a desk could be interpreted as the establishment of a State Religion.
Good blog.
Unfortunately, you wont find specific references in the constitution concerning the current understanding of what separation is between a church and government. the unfortunate part is concerning the judicial systems "interpretations" of it, and our willingness to just accept it.
I concur. If you have an opportunity to check out other news bits on this story, you will see tremendous support for the teacher from students, parents, and community members... don't know if it will help, but its nice to see others realizing the silliness of it.
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http://progressiveu.org/blog/profstevevo
"Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?” (Sun Tzu)
The phrase "separation of church and state" is not found word for word in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. However, to deny the relevance of that phrase in the interpretation of the First Amendment requires a pretty blatant disregard for the historical context surrounding the instituion of the Bill of Rights. To quote the Supreme Court of the United States, in the decision of Reynolds v. United States (1878)...
"At the first session of the first Congress the amendment now under consideration was proposed with others by Mr. Madison. It met the views of the advocates of religious freedom, and was adopted. Mr. Jefferson afterwards, in reply to an address to him by a committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, took occasion to say: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god; that he owes account to noneother for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, -- I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order."
Attempting to dismiss the relevance of the concept of church/state separation on the basis of a such a literal evasion is little more than a pedestrian canard, and one that fortunately our Courts are not prone to accept.
Thanks for playing,
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I have a new theory that the ACLU doesn't believe in the freedom of all people to worship the way they want to and now be discriminated, but they believe that people have the right to worship in a way so no one else hears about it or they'll be sued. It reminds me of the whole "send a Christmas card to the ACLU" thing that went around a few years ago, to send a Christmas card to the ACLU because they have employees who open their mail to get donation checks, and so if every member of every Christian church in the U.S. sent them a Christmas card it would cost us each thirty five cents, but it would cost them hours and hours of employee hours. I don't know if that's true, but I think it's a truly ironic way of letting them know how people really feel about them.
Well, as is often the case in situations like this, the pro-bible crowd isn't giving us ALL of the story. To begin with, I was able to find nothing that actually suggested that Mr. Freshwater was being sued. He is facing a possible charge of insubordination from the school principal, but no lawsuit (at least not yet). In fact, it is Freshwater who is threatening to file a lawsuit, claiming "viewpoint discrimination." (LINK)
The WND article would also seem to paint a picture suggesting that Mr. Freshwater was just minding his own business, when the big-old-evil school principle just arbitrarily decided to step in and deprive Mr. Freshwater from privately practicing his religion. In reality, however, Mr. Freshwater has in the past demonstrated a tendency to insert his religious beliefs into his class curriculum. For example, it is of no surprise for us to find out that Mr. Freshwater believes that separation of church and state "is a fraud," or that he is an advocate in the classroom of "intelligent design." Mr. Freshwater is in fact a I.D. activist who has previously petitioned the local school board to include creationism in the district's science curriculum. (LINK)
We do know that at least one student and their families felt put upon by the seemingly pervasive religiosity in Mr. Freshwater's classroom. In fact, it was a complain by at least one family that prompted the review which resulted in this government employee being asked to remove these religious references from his workspace. And, THAT is a very important thing to remember, here. Despite Mr. Freshwater's claims that his bible was only for "private" use, the fact remains that when on the job, the government does have a compelling reason to infringe on the free speech of its employees. (c.f. Peloza v. Capistrano (1994))
And finally, in response to this comment...
...it might surprise you that in this case, the ACLU is actually on Mr. Freshwater's side.
Now, if the "bible on the desk" was an incident in isolation, I would probably agree with the ACLU position, but taken in the context of the fact that Mr. Freshwater had multiple religious displays in his classroom (both the one that your article mentions, plus another copy of the ten comandments displayed prominently on the door to his classroom...LINK) and keeping in mind his religion-in-the-science-classroom activism, one begins to wonder if Mr. Freshwater is really as innocent as your story would have us believe.
TTFN,
percivale
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Check out Progressive PRIDE, a Gay-Straight Alliance for the Progressive U community.
I don't see how having a bible on a desk is hurting anyone. I really feel offended that someone would find this offending....lol. But seriously if he did not open the book and read a few verses aloud to the class, then I really don't see what's wrong with it. You know there are lessons that are taught in school that have some associations with the bible. They still allow those books in the schools, those lessons. People are just trying to find any reason to sue or be mad. We are a mad country and we are never happy with anything. The teacher did not force his religion on anyone. Although many of us tend to be pushy about, those of us who actually know what it takes to show the truth of the bible don't have to be.
"In a world where we all can't make up our minds, we are definitely too sure of ourselves."
J for the juicy truth
I think there are not enogh people talking about this issue from this point of view. I have yet to find the "quote" in the Constitution where it talks about a separation between Church and State.
The phrase "separation of church and state" is a politically charged phrase that refers to the intention of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. It isn't found word for word in the Constitution, but our Supreme Court has ruled that this phrase represents a definitive explanation of the intended scope of the Establishment Clause that was delivered explicitly as such by the founding fathers most intimately involved in the crafting of the First Amendment.
TTFN,
Blackout
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Yes, I've changed my username from "percivale" to "Blackout." Go here if you want to know why.