What Mormons really believe

So do you think you are a christian? I'm curious.
"It's Better To Burn Out Than To Fade Away" -Neil Young

I have notice that people don't really ask questions when it comes to the Mormon religion. I have heard the craziest things ever since I was young and everyone assumes that all they hear is true and they don't bother asking. To put it in my husband's words " You wouldn't go to a Chevy Dealer and ask about Fords, would ya?"

So who is Jesus to you?..Give me the complete definition of who he is and what he did, and how you can have relationship with him?
"It's Better To Burn Out Than To Fade Away" -Neil Young

He is our savior. He died on the cross so that, one day, we might be able to return to heaven and live with him. He is our brother who made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.
To have a relationship with him, you have to, first, try and understand all that he went through, be humble, and pray often.

I can't help but see, Shawk13, that you made a comment to another blogger a while ago about the trinity. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, we beleive, are 3 separate people; they are only one in purpous.

I was curious if you believe that you have to do anything else but admit, believe and confess because in the Bible, Jesus says, "IF you confess with you mouth that God has raised you from the dead and believe in you heart the Lord Jesus you will be saved" (not a perfect reproduction, but i was doing it from memory)

If you are talking about sins, we believe that there are steps you should take to repent. Part of that process is believing that Christ died for your sins and that you will be forgiven if you are truly sorry. As always faith is a big thing in every aspect of our church. I did not see Christ walk on water, or hang on the cross, but I have faith that he did, and I believe that He will walk with us again.

How is it that Christ can forgive sin if he is not one with the father? What about John 1:1-4? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. The Word gave life to everything that was created and his life brought light to everyone. and...
John 1:10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn't recognize him.
"It's Better To Burn Out Than To Fade Away" -Neil Young

Christ can forgive our sins because he knows what it feels like to have the pain of that sin. When he died, he took all of our sins and pains apon himslef, and died so that we would be able to repent and be forgiven.
You have heard the story of the Baptism of Jesus right? If they are all the same person then how can God be on earth being baptised, be speaking from heaven saying " this is my beloved son, in whom i am pleased", and be decending as a dove all at the same time?
When God created the earth, he followed all the laws of nature. He can not break them. he created them and must live by them just like us here on earth. No one can be in 3 different places all at once. It goes agains nature.

Oh, i forgot to mention that if they are all the same person, then why do the majority of people begin prayers with "Dear God" or "Dear Heavenly Father"? There isn't a huge number of people that pray to Christ. They pray to God because he is the one and only God. You don't hear people saying " Dear Holy Ghost" do you? kinda strange i would think.

Where in the bible does it say God must follow natural law? It seems pretty unnatural to me, for the Nile to turn to blood, or for Lazarus to rise from the dead. To begin, God can be in heaven and earth at the same time because he is what we like call, Omnipresent. One Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, youve probably heard of him, wrote that God does not dwell in the linear state of time that we do. He is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. This is a standard teaching of all followers of the Old Testament. It is GODS nature to be EVERYWHERE at one time.
Now, about Christ forgiving mens sin, what would make you think that simply because he understands our pain of being in sin would allow him to forgive sin?
If one is to be forgiven for his/her transgressions, then wouldn't they need to be forgiven by the one they transgressed against? Jesus forgave sins. But Sin is against God. So for jesus to forgive the sins of men, those sins would have to be a transgression of those men against Jesus, meaning, Jesus must be God.
You may be able to think about God like an egg, you have three parts, each serving seperate roles, but all part of the same thing. God is, The father, the son, and the Holy Ghost. So when we pray to GOD, we are praying to, the Father, the Son and The Holy Ghost.
This simply comes down to one thing. The Christ of the LDS is different than the Christ of Christians. The Christian God is not the same as the god of the church of the LDS. My advice is this, believe the Holy Bible and what it says completely, or do not call yourself a follower of the Christian faith. Do not try align yourself with the people you believe to be beneath your own faith, the church of the LDS is not the same as any other church in the world. Your not following what you say your following by saying you are a Christian.

"It's Better To Burn Out Than To Fade Away" -Neil Young

It seems that we have only one problem; you say to believe the Bible completely, when we cant. Like i said before we believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. The Bible is not a perfect teaching. Things have been changed, Things have been lost. You can prove it now with other languages. Very seldome does something translate perfectly from one language to another. We just believe that the King James version of the Bible is the closets to Gods Teachings.
Now the science thing. When God created the earth, he created all the laws of nature, you know, gravity......and on. He too has to live by them. He has a higher unerstanding of what they are. How do you think Jesus healed the sick and made the blind see? He was blessed with the knowlege of how our bodies work. They just weren't better after being sick; it's possible that he, with his power, increased the white blood cell count and that is what got rid of the illness. It wan't just magically gone.
So do you believe that God literallly made Adam from the dirt of the earth? I don't. If you think about it, people back then didn't know about electrons, protons, cells all that good stuff. The dust of the earth was the smallest thing they could think of when they recorded it. Same goes for the blood of the Nile. What else is red and flows like water? Blood. It wan't literally blood, they even say now that if the ecosystem near the Nile ever gets out of whack again then a kind of planktin increases in the water and it turnes the water red, and gives it a funny flavor.
when the bible was written, they didn't have the understanding that we do now, so they used the knowlege that they did have to try and explain things.
As for God's time, i agree with you. God does not go by our time here on earth. He has his own. When it says that God created the earth in seven days, it was probably more like millions of years. Seven days was the earthly translation. We don't really know how god's time is measured, but it is different than ours.
Now, we all worship the same God. There is only one of him, and we just give him different names. You just believe that he has 2 extra parts and i think those parts are separate from him. If they are all the same, how can god be keeping the universe in line, and be in Mary's womb?
Now, on judgement day, we will be standing before god begging his forgiveness, but Jesus will be next to us, pleading our case. He knows how we feel, and he wants us to be in heaven just as much as we do.
you know, i'm really starting to enjoy our little chats. have a great day.

I suppose this is where the Mormon church and the Christian churches divide. You believe in what Joseph Smith taught, and if anything contradics what he has taught, then it must be "bad translation" or simply incorrect. Christians follow the teachings of
Jesus Christ, the God of the Universe, whom through all things were created. Mormons follow a man from Upstate New York, who teaches about ancient american civilizations (that to this day there is no evidence of ever existing). Mormon beliefs follow nothing that Christ or his followers have ever taught or followed. If you do not follow what Go has layed out in the bible, you are not a christian, because you are not a christ follower. Christ taught from the bible. It IS complete, and you still have resisted to comment on the verse from revelations about adding on to the bible.. Is that incomplete? Is it mistranslated? that is what you will most likely say. Nothing I say can change your mind, due to the fact that everything the bible says, you will twist and say that it is incomplete, or mistranslated. There is no arguing with you because of this. I will just say, that we DO NOT have the same God. My God is bigger and Better than your God. Because your God is just Satan trying to be God. Joseph Smith was very much mislead, and I hate the fact that Satan has succeeded in misleading so many people. It is by far one of his biggest and evilest accomplishments he has ever achieved. Jesus was not simply a man, he was 100% man and 100% God. And also, Wouldn't it be a bit magical, for a "man" whom you call Jesus to create white blood cells? Do you know why Mary was a virgin? or don't you believe that either? Mary had to be a virgin because EVERY human is born into sin. in order to escape that consequence you could not be born of man. Jesus was born of a virgin.. not a virgin who had sex with God. I know you'll say" that doesn't follow natrual law" well i can't argue with you, because you're completely brainwashed into thinking that the bible is imperfect. I could easily prove everything to you if you just believed that the bible was perfect and true. There is no point in having a conversation with you because I can not help you when it comes to religion. I disagree with you entirely. so I say we discuss other things and become buddies. We don't have to discuss religion. I would rather just hope that through friendship you may understand what I'm trying to tell you. and really take it to heart. I don't know you, but I do hope for you.
It's Better To Burn Out Than To Fade Away" -Neil Young

some where we totally lost the whole point of this. Just to inform you, we believe that every child is perfect until the age of eight. That is the age that we believe a child is able to understand right from wrong. Until that age, the parents are responsible for the childs sins because it is there duty to teach them the right path. NO one is automatically a sinner just because they have a body, that would make Christ a sinner, and we have already agreed that he was perfect.

npsm18:
God gives his law through the bible, and I can't say someone is going to hell. but i sure can tell when something is contradicting the bible. You wouldn't agree with something that was completely contradicting what you believed. God isn't a leniant God, in fact the bible states he is a jealous God. He wants his children's full attention. He does not want them to worship any other God but him. I disagree that the mormon God is the same God that Christians follow. I believe that the Jesus that I know from the bible is completley different in essence and in being from the mormon Jesus. I never said anyone was going to hell... although I do believe in it, I know its not my descition in th end. I have had many Gods in my own life (money, popularity, pride).
"It's Better To Burn Out Than To Fade Away" -Neil Young

Christ is not a sinner, because he did not inherit Adams sin (which everyone inherits). because he was born of a virgin. that's what I was trying to get to. Adam brought sin into the world. and because of that sin, we commit sin. we are defiant. we lie to our parants, we steal, cheat, and curse God. But Jesus, he did nto inherit that "sin" gene (you could call it) because of th virgin birth. He was perfect, and he can relate to us because he too was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. He overcame Satan however. Jesus died and rose again showing that he could overcome death. and he did, he was witnessed by many people, including his desciples. Because of his defeat of death, he took every sin on himself. bearing our shame and punishment because he loves us. He is God, he created us. John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. The Word gave life to everything that was created and his life brought light to everyone. and...
John 1:10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn't recognize him.explain what you think those verses mean
"It's Better To Burn Out Than To Fade Away" -Neil Young

Here is what Mormons really believe. Please feel free to ask questions.

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Now we really need to define these terms and go to the source to find out what you really mean here. As the LDS holds, the Bible (as far as it is translated correctly, I will deal with this on #8) the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, these are the four major works the church follows as well as the words of Joseph Smith Jr.
Quoting Joseph Smith Jr. from the History of the Church 6:305-6 "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined ans supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so you may see ...It is the first principle of the gosple to know for certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and will show you it from the Bible...
Here then is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you abtain the resurrectiom of the dead, and are able to dwell in the everlasting burnings, and sit in glory. as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power..."

Polytheism is belief in or worship of multiple gods or deities.
You don't have to worship multiple gods to be a polytheist, you just have to believe there are multiple gods.

Monotheism (from Greek μόνος "one" and θεός "god") is the belief in the existence of one deity or God, or in the oneness of God.

You cannot be a polytheist and a monotheist at the same time, the Law of Non-contridiction states in it's basic form: "A" cannot be non "A" at the same time.

Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD"
Exodus 3:14 "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" God declarig who he is to Moses
John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I AM" The Greek here reads nicely, "Before Abraha, sprang into existence I AM Eternal God" So Jesus not only proving his Deity, but in such away the Jews knew exactly what he was saying without question
Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
Lying to the Holy Spirit was lying to God.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:17 "For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:19 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous"
Yes we will all pay an account for our deeds, but the Bible tells us clearly that we inherit Adam's sin.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
I will answer this below as it really is the same statement.

4. We believe that the fist principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; thrid, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." This man on the cross beside Jesus had no chance to be baptised, or have hands laid upon him, yet Jesus said, "today you will be with me in paradise"

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
I would agree with you, but as I have clearly shown in statement #1 which god? The LDS believe in multiple gods, if they worship them or not is not the case, they believe in many gods and one day they will become gods, not the same God as the God of the Bible.

When the LDS speaks of authority, they mean the Priesthood, or Priesthood Authority. So with this statement you are saying "we have the Priesthood Authority", where is your authority? Jesus said in John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" This is where we as Christian believers get our authority, from God, believing is the finished work of Christ.

Now the Mormon authority, you have two Priesthoods, the Aaronic and the Melchizedek Priesthood. You cannot have the Aaronic or Levitcal Priesthood as you have no one from the line of Levi, ie one of Jewish desent. Hebrews 7:12 says of the Aaronic Priesthood "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
The only one who can hold the Melchizedek Priesthood is Jesus Hebews 7:17 "For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek" Hebrews 7:21 "(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent(Change his mind), Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek" Hebrews 7:24* But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." The Greek word here for unchangeable can be read these ways
"1) unviolated, not to be violated, inviolable
2) unchangeable and therefore not liable to pass to a successor"

So Joseph Smith or anyone else cannot pass this Priesthood on, because it is untransferable it cannot be violated, no one can hold it but Jesus Christ on Nazareth, period, end of story. One can read into this as one wishes, but I would challenge anyone who is LDS and believes you get your authority from these two Priesthoods, to read Hebrews chapters 5 through 10, then read Hebrews 11 for an explaination of faith and the believing by faith for what God has already done for you.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
I sang this song for a log already today, but I will sing it again Sam... We all reamember the Sesame Street Song? "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things in not the same" Joseph Smith states that in the vision he had and asked the personages "what church he should join?" I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.” Pearl of Great Price Joseph Smith 2:19

So for 1720 or so years the church seest to exsist, which in turn makes Jesus out to be a liar when he said to Peter "That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt 16:18

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
I cannot say I have ever heard of an LDS speak in tongues, this is new to me.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and importat things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
Yes and that relevation is called the Bible.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upoin the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and recieve its paradisiacal glory.
If we go be the older revelation (the Bible) will always supersede the newer revelations ie: words of knowledge, LDS prophecies, etc. if the newer contridicts the older, we must always go back to the older.
Saints to gather to Independence, Mo. and build Temple (D&C 84) This was to happen in Joseph Smith's life time, it never happened then, it hasn't happened now. The Tribes of Israel will aways be gathered back to Israel (Isaiah, Ezekiel) Not to the Americas, or any other area of the world.

The test of a prophet:
Deut 13:1-4 "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him."

Deut 18:20-22 "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

It is very clear that even if a prophets prophecies come to pass, this still doesn't make him a true prophet (Deut 13:1-4) he must not have us follow after "other" gods and that prophet under Levitical Law was to be killed. Also if a prophet prophecies in the Lord's name and the prophecy doesn't come to pass, we should not even fear him, for the Lord is not with him. When the Lord's prophets gives prophecies, they hit the mark 100% of the time all the time. Joseph Smith never hit the mark on any prophecy he ever received from "the Lord God" so it must go without saying, the Lord God of Joseph Smith, is not the Lord God of the Bible. The Bible demands 100% accuracy 100% of the time, no acceptions.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Yes you can worship how you like, but if you are not worshiping the real Jesus, your worship is in vain.
II Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel"
These passages shows that there is another Jesus, another Gospel, and another Spirit, which is no Gospel at all.
II Cor 11:13-15 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
We see here there are false Apostles, and fasle ministers and they get their power from Satan.
With all that being said, you have your "Testamony" your burning in the bosom, so I challenge you to look at this, now knowing Satan works as an Angel of Light and his followers as Apostles and Ministers of Righteousness, when we read Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one." And lookng at Gal1:6-9 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Your "another" Testament of Jesus Christ was given by an "Angel of Light" (Moroni) and is just that "an other" Testament, you receive what is called a burning in the bosom, we have seen that Satan comes as an "Angel of Light" could you have possibly been deceived by the deceiver?
Paul in Galatians says "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." The Greek word for accursed is "anathema" the strongest word Paul could have used to get his point across, meaning " a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction; a curse; a man accursed, devoted to the direst of woes"
Again you must ask yourself, does this pertain to you and the LDS Church? Joseph Smith First attacked the Christian Church, the Christian Church did not attack Joseph Smith or Mormonism, we have stood up against these attack, sometime a little slowly, but we have stood against them.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
Nothing I would disagree with on any level.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; in deed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul- We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and we hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Then why have you, the LDS missionaries, the LDS church and Joseph Smith not told the whole truth when explaining what you believe? I went very carefully through your statement and showed where you clearly don't agree with Historical Othodox Christianity, false prophecies, and that you truly believe in more than one God, but when a missionary comes to someones door, they will never tell the truth about what they truly believe unless confronted by the truth. This is called a lie, plain and simple.

Read here from a former Mormon Missionary and the lies he told as a Missionary
http://www.mrm.org/topics/evangelism-issues/ten-lies-i-told-mormon-missi...

These are what we call The Articles of Faith. We are tought them from a very young age. This is what I beleive.

I would like to finish off with, I do not hate you or anyone in the LDS Church, you are seemingly very fine caring loving people. But being a fine caring loving person doesn't give you fellowship with God. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but through me" If we have the wrong Jesus, we are wrong enough to lose our soul for all eternity. If Joseph and Brigham are right, I have no fear because I know there are those that have my name and will baptise for me after I'm dead and at worst I will live in a Heaven that is still better than this earth, if Joseph and Brigham are wrong, all those in that are LDS are in danger of separation from God, Judgement and Hell Fire. Please take the time to consider this seriously, I would never expect you to change you faith based of feelings, check the facts, I have given you lots to look over, maybe a little too much, but if you truly want to serve the Creator of the Universe, the Almighty God, Jesus God the Son second person of the Trinity is the only way you will every find him, Jesus says "I stand at the door and knock, if you open it up I will come in and eat with you" If you wish to discuss these topics or others, you can email directly at erase@shaw.ca

Thank you for your time
Jason

If all good Mormons reach godhood, why was the Angel Moroni an Angel, why did he not reach godhood? It was clear in Joseph Smith's first vision he saw God the Father and God the Son Jesus Christ as two separate being and knew they were gods, so what happened with Moroni?

j.

I will only respond to #4; I got sick half way through and I have too much homework to take that long just to prove you wrong. Yes, Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise" but that is they key, that man would only be in paradise, not heaven. Paradise is a separate place. When you die, you to to paradise or prison. That is where you wait to be judged by God. So yes, that man is in paradise. That is why we do baptism for the dead. If that man has family now, and they do their family history, than his name may be submitted to our church, and we will baptise someone in behalf of him. That is all I'm going to say. I accept all that you stand for, and I can only hope that you can give me the same respect. I will pray for the contempt in your heart.

<< Luke 23:43 >>
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Since Jesus said he will be with him in paradise... so are you saying Jesus is in a totally different place with this guy instead of heaven?

Corinthians 12:2-4
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter"

Reference KJV (MacArthur)
Since it took place 14 years before the writing of 2 Corinthians, the specific vision Paul was not describing two separate visions; "the third heaven" and Paradise" are the same place with Rev. 22;14, which says it is in heaven). The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere (Gen. 8:2; Deut. 11:11; 1 Kin. 8:35); the second is interplanetary and interstellar space (Gen. 15:5 Ps. 8:3; Is. 13:10); and the third is the abode of God (1 Kin. 8:30; 2 Chr. 30:27; Ps. 123:1).

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Tree of life in Paradise= Tree of life in heaven= Paradise=Heaven

I accept what you stand for, I have contempt or ill will towards you, the LDS Church, Joseph Smith Jr., or Brigham Young, I care enough for you and anyone else in the Mormon Church that I will loving tell you that you have a different Jesus, a different Gospel and a different Spirit, it would be unloving of me not to tell you. The Bible is very clear on things, the LDS Church and Historic Christianity depart on many issues. You posted what Mormons really believe, and I felt compelled to reply to what you had posted, this is an open forum from what I can tell. If I have misrepresented Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or the LDS Church please show me where I may have errored. I have taken the information from Mormon sources, quoted in context. So if you got sick you may desire to ask your leaders about your Church History if you never understood this is what has taught and does teach in LDS Churches.

As for paradise, Paul states in Philippians 1:21-24 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you." Paul is quite clear that living will benefit those on earth, but he desires to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
Jesus said in John 14:1-6 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: 2 if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Why would Jesus be preparing a place for us if we were not going there right away?

Ok so we have common ground with one question, you say you baptise for the dead, where would it be found that baptism for the dead in scripture?

we believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly

I'm taking chem, bio, english 121, and orientation to college (1 credit). It puts me at 12 total credits, and it really sucks. I'm up till 12 or even 2, I sleep a little, and then I get up at 6 to pick up my hubby at work. Not to mention that my kid is teething and all he does is screem and cry, and get really bad diaper rash. It sounds like a life you would love;)

any way, these topics are getting boring so lets pick a new one. How do you feel about evolution? Let me know.

just wonderin', how old are you??

oh, just so you know, the Book of Mormon isn't a complete book either. Maybe you know this story too...Joseph's friend, gad zooks I can't remember his name, I'll call him bert........anyway.........bert was having trouble with his wife b/c he was helping joseph translate the BOM (book of mormon). She wanted proof, kinda like you, that the plates were real. Well joseph prayed and asked God permission to show them to her. The answer was no. Bert kept bugging joseph, so he prayed again, and again. Each time the answer was no. Finally God told joseph to do what he thought he should, so joseph had a brain fart and gave bert several pages, that had already been translated, so that he could show is wife. Well, bert was not so smart eaither b/c he lost the pages. They ended up in the hands of several anti-mormon leaders, and were changed and published. To this day I believe that they are in several anti-mormon books. once again, that is what i believe.
PS this is my version of the story. the doods name wan't bert, i'm not sure that people then knew what a brain fart was, and well, it's the story in my language. Don't get lost in translation!!! ;)

Age: Old, ohh my aching back...

Yeah that time of childhood has to be tough on parents, I have so many friends with newborns or just a few years old, at times they look like a cartoon they are soo burnt out.

Evolution... Well, I'd have to say I'm a 6 day'r, but as it says God spoke the Universe (one word, or one speach, I kinda find that funny) but he could have done it in 6 nano seconds, I'm not super hung up on the time factor, but it does day in Exodus that he created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, so I will agree with that and take creation in six days for 1000 Alex.

I think if we look at the amount of the Bible given to the creation, it's maybe 1-2% maybe more, then the rest of the Bible is about redemption, in the "other" post you brought up Ruth, a beautiful picture of the Church (Ruth) and Kingsmen Redeemer (Boaz, a picture or type of Christ, not Christ but a foreshadowing) The entire Old Testament speaks of one who is to come to deliver those from their sins, as we find out in the New Testament, the world is chosen for salvation, but some by their choice or being lied to yet willfully follow a lie, but that salvation is there for all.

haha uhmm so that is my view of evolution....

j.

you never answered my age question. maybe you just need your back popped?

That's fine, you can believe that, but macro or Darwinian Evolution and Mirco Evolution are two different things, a dog changing breeds by mixing breeds is one thing, changing from a fish to a dog is something else. Read the Genesis creation account again, God said he created them after their "kind" the plants after their "kind", so an apple tree won't produce watermellon and grapes produce figs. Plus I think Jesus answered this in away when he said Does a fig tree produce thorns....

Again Exodus says 6 days so I'll take the 6 days, the day is like a thousand years bit it showing God's timelessness and how he is outside of our time/space, I'm gonna stop while I'm ahead, you will get me going on space-time and how time is a physical property....gah stop Jason!!!!

j.

oh well, i guess that the only answer i want to hear i'm not going to get.
I do understand the differenc between good old Darwinian and mirco but i still think that evolution is a major thing. There are always scientific accounts of plants or animals that were one way, and 20-30 years later, they have changed just a bit. I know that a dog isn't going to up and sprout petals, but things do change, and it's kinda interesting.

it's 11:00 here, need my sleepy sleep, got get up around 5am
I'll check this in the AM and see your responses. All of our chats have been cool, just so you know I don't hate you, the LDS, or anyone for that matter, my post with mormonism come from a place of love care and compassion for those in the LDS Church.

j.

sorry about any spelling errors, if you read any of my other blogs but this one, you'd know that i'm "stupid".

well, i have a test coming up. g2g study

I consider myself Christian, and I believe in certain aspects of evolution. To start, we can see a few theories of evolution in nature already. Fishes adapt to the size of the tank they are in, many species are still here today because they were the strongest, the fittest.

Now do I believe that evolution clashes with those beliefs of the Bible. No I actually don't. See, I read the bible rather slowly. And it clearly states in the Bible that he commanded the Earth to bring forth every animal. God did create the Earth, and then commanded the Earth to bring forth a lot of things on this earth. He did create every animal, but what if that process just so happened to be evolution?

What does evolution preach? Well, that all in all, that man came from dust basically. Parasitic dust evovled into a simple spieces, then evovled into another, then another, then eventually a man. It's the same thing. The Bible also preaches that woman evovled from man. Quite the same as evolution.

So as you can see, the theory of evolution really doesn't clash with the Bible.

Do I believe man came from ape? That's a tough one. If I were to believe this, then it would clash directly with the theory of evolution. See, animals are supposed to evolve not only to their enviroment, but stronger. And well, man is by far an inferior being to the ape when it comes to their physical ability. Maybe ape came after man, who knows. But I swear, I have some family relatives who act more like apes than human....and could probably pass as the missing link.

I remember this question being asked. The true answer is who really knows, and who really cares. The entire concept of weight is actually only a concept that we have come to know here on earth, and is non existint in space. Apparently, the earth is so heavy, it floats. There are things in this galaxy that just doesn't make sense. Neptune is a planet just made out of gas, yet it's held together by who knows. But here is something that God cannot do. He cannot operate in this world unless something is spoken. According to the Bible, he gave all dominion of earth over to man. This is why God can only function through prayer...this also means that the devil can only operate through his own prayer as well. This is also why the right spoken words can create a great life, and poorly spoken words can destroy a life.

Why am I a God fearing person? Well, for the reason that when I look at history, logic, reasoning, and take into the account of the Bible, it all makes sense. If you want to ever take a look at perfection, take a look at nature. Nature is literally perfect in operation Then take a look at man, flawed. I think we are the only species capable of sinning.

Just my two cents.

I'm actually a student of logic, and well, your theory that if God could create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it is actually quite childish, and I'm not sure why you would bring up something such as this.

First of all, this is not orginal as I heard it before, by a child.

Your logic here is rhetorical, in other words, there is no right answer. This is equivalent of asking you if you could run the speed of sound and turned on your ipod, would it work? If you could drive the speed of light and turned on your headlights, would they work? If God could create a rock so light, that he couldn't throw it? Hmm...could God create a booger so big, he couldn't pick it? Now your debates are based upon rhetorical logic, which in the end, doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If your point is to disprove that there is a God or not, then use better logic. Not something you heard a child repeat years ago.

Hi Amy,

I posted these facts on your religion on another thread. But here it is if you want to read them. Please don't consider them anti-mormon, as they are an account of true historical facts. Unles you consider the encyclopedia and regular history books you can find in the library anti-mormon. What is considered anti-mormon is anything that is not "church approved." Which just so happens to be a lot of history books, even those written by former BYU professors who were excommunicated.

So here are the facts.....

The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long? NOTES

Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later. NOTES

In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians. NOTES

Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging. NOTES It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered "great persecution" for telling people of his vision.

The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars." NOTES

Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place. NOTES

The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic, as proven by recent DNA studies), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian. NOTES

The people of the Book of Mormon were supposedly devout Jews observing the Law of Moses, but in the Book of Mormon there is almost no trace of their observance of Mosaic law or even an accurate knowledge of it. NOTES

Although Joseph Smith said that God had pronounced the completed translation of the plates as published in 1830 "correct," many changes have been made in later editions. Besides thousands of corrections of poor grammar and awkward wording in the 1830 edition, other changes have been made to reflect subsequent changes in some of the fundamental doctrine of the church. For example, an early change in wording modified the 1830 edition's acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity, thus allowing Smith to introduce his later doctrine of multiple gods. A more recent change (1981) replaced "white" with "pure," apparently to reflect the change in the church's stance on the "curse" of the black race. NOTES

Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon contained the "fulness of the gospel." However, its teaching on many doctrinal subjects has been ignored or contradicted by the present LDS church, and many doctrines now said by the church to be essential are not even mentioned there. Examples are the church's position on the nature of God, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, polygamy, Hell, priesthood, secret organizations, the nature of Heaven and salvation, temples, proxy ordinances for the dead, and many other matters. NOTES

Many of the basic historical notions found in the Book of Mormon had appeared in print already in 1825, just two years before Smith began producing the Book of Mormon, in a book called View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith (no relation) and published just a few miles from where Joseph Smith lived. A careful study of this obscure book led one LDS church official (the historian B. H. Roberts, 1857-1933) to confess that the evidence tended to show that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient record, but concocted by Joseph Smith himself, based on ideas he had read in the earlier book. NOTES

Although Mormons claim that God is guiding the LDS church through its president (who has the title "prophet, seer and revelator"), the successive "prophets" have repeatedly either led the church into undertakings that were dismal failures or failed to see approaching disaster. To mention only a few: the Kirtland Bank, the United Order, the gathering of Zion to Missouri, the Zion's Camp expedition, polygamy, the Deseret Alphabet NOTES. A recent example is the successful hoax perpetrated on the church by manuscript dealer Mark Hofmann in the 1980s. He succeeded in selling the church thousands of dollars worth of manuscripts which he had forged. The church and its "prophet, seer and revelator" accepted them as genuine historical documents. The church leaders learned the truth not from God, through revelation, but from non-Mormon experts and the police, after Hofmann was arrested for two murders he committed to cover up his hoax. This scandal was reported nationwide. NOTES

The secret temple ritual (the "endowment") was introduced by Smith in May, 1842, just two months after he had been initiated into Freemasonry. The LDS temple ritual closely resembles the Masonic ritual of that day. NOTES Smith explained that the Masons had corrupted the ancient (God-given) ritual by changing it and removing parts of it, and that he was restoring it to its "pure" and "original" (and complete) form, as revealed to him by God. In the years since, the LDS church has made many fundamental changes in the "pure and original" ritual as "restored" by Smith, mostly by removing major parts of it. NOTES

Many doctrines which were once taught by the LDS church, and held to be fundamental, essential and "eternal", have been abandoned. Whether we feel that the church was correct in abandoning them is not the point; rather, the point is that a church claiming to be the church of God takes one "everlasting" position at one time and the opposite position at another, all the time claiming to be proclaiming the word of God. Some examples are:

- The Adam-God doctrine (Adam is God the Father); NOTES
- the United Order (all property of church members is to be held in common, with title in the church);
- Plural Marriage (polygamy; a man must have more than one wife to attain the highest degree of heaven); NOTES
- the Curse of Cain (the black race is not entitled to hold God's priesthood because it is cursed; this doctrine was not abandoned until 1978); NOTES
- Blood Atonement (some sins - apostasy, adultery, murder, interracial marriage - must be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, preferably by someone appointed to do so by church authorities); NOTES

All of these doctrines were proclaimed by the reigning prophet to be the Word of God, "eternal," "everlasting," to govern the church "forevermore." All have been abandoned by the present church.

Joseph Smith's early revelations were collected and first published in 1833 in the Book of Commandments. God (as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants Sections 1 and 67) supposedly testified by revelation that the revelations as published were true and correct. Because the Book of Commandments did not receive wide distribution (most copies were destroyed by angry opponents of the Mormons in Missouri, where it was published), they were republished - with additional revelations - as the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835 in Kirtland, Ohio. However, many of the revelations as published in Kirtland differed fundamentally from their versions as originally given. The changes generally gave more power and authority to Smith, and justified changes he was making in church organization and theology. The question naturally arises as to why revelations which God had pronounced correct needed to be revised. NOTES

Joseph Smith claimed to have received the priesthood (the only valid priesthood recognized by God) directly from resurrected beings (angels): the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist and the Mechizedek (higher) Priesthood from Peter, James and John. However, the accounts of these visitations are contradictory and questionable. NOTES

Joseph Smith claimed to be a "translator" by the power of God. In addition to the Book of Mormon, he made several other "translations":

- The Book of Abraham, from Egyptian papyrus scrolls which came into his possession in 1835. He stated that the scrolls were written by the biblical Abraham "by his own hand." Smith's translation is now accepted as scripture by the LDS church, as part of its Pearl of Great Price. Smith also produced an "Egyptian Grammar" based on his translation. Modern scholars of ancient Egyptian agree that the scrolls are common Egyptian funeral scrolls, entirely pagan in nature, having nothing to do with Abraham, and from a period 2000 years later than Abraham. The "Grammar" has been said by Egyptologists to prove that Smith had no notion of the Egyptian language. It is pure fantasy: he made it up. NOTES

- The "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible. Smith was commanded by God to retranslate the Bible because the existing translations contained errors. He completed his translation in 1833, but the church still uses the King James Version. NOTES

- The "Kinderhook Plates," a group of six metal plates with strange engraved characters, unearthed in 1843 near Kinderhook, Illinois, and examined by Smith, who began a "translation" of them. He never completed the translation, but he identified the plates as an "ancient record," and translated enough to identify the author as a descendant of Pharaoh. Local farmers later confessed that they had manufactured, engraved and buried the plates themselves as a hoax. They had apparently copied the characters from a Chinese tea box. NOTES

Joseph Smith claimed to be a "prophet." He frequently prophesied future events "by the power of God." Many of these prophecies are recorded in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants. Almost none have been fulfilled, and many cannot now be fulfilled because the deeds to be done by the persons named were never done and those persons are now dead. Many prophecies included dates for their fulfillment, and those dates are now long past, the events never having occurred. NOTES

Joseph Smith died not as a martyr, but in a gun battle in which he fired a number of shots. He was in jail at the time, under arrest for having ordered the destruction of a Nauvoo newspaper which dared to print an exposure (which was true) of his secret sexual liaisons. At that time he had announced his candidacy for the presidency of the United States, set up a secret government, and secretly had himself crowned "King of the Kingdom of God." NOTES

Since the founding of the church down to the present day the church leaders have not hesitated to lie, to falsify documents, to rewrite or suppress history, or to do whatever is necessary to protect the image of the church. Many Mormon historians have been excommunicated from the church for publishing their findings on the truth of Mormon history. NOTES

Trying to determine the truth by relying entirely on the feelings one gets after praying is not a reliable way to learn the truth. One can easily deceive oneself into "feeling" something that is really not true at all. The only reliable way to get to the truth is to examine verifiable facts. NOTES

Mormonism includes many other unusual teachings which you will probably not be told about until you have been in the church for a long time. These teachings are not revealed to investigators or new converts because those people are not yet considered ready to have more than "milk" as doctrine. The Mormons also probably realize that if investigators knew of these unusual teachings they would not join the church. In addition to those mentioned elsewhere in this article, the following are noteworthy: NOTES

God was once a man like us.
God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.
God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.
God ("Heavenly Father") has at least one wife, our "Mother in Heaven," but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.
Jesus was married.
We can become like God and rule over our own universe.
There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.
Jesus and Satan ("Lucifer") are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.
We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.
The "Lord" ("Jehovah") in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from "God the Father" ("Elohim").
In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.
Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a "pre-existence", during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.
Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.
The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.
Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals - everything that has ever lived on earth - will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.
Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.
Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.
If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.
A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.
You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.

This is an email I just got...posted it on here....

----------------------------------------------------
My dad is hard working, honest, blue-collar guy. The world hasn't always been to kind to him. He found himself out of a job many times as I was a child. You could say we grew up poor. We qualified for welfare and free school lunch, but my dad had too much dignity and pride to accept the freebies. He busted his ass and made every penny count.

By the time I was in high school things were working out for my dad and he had stable work with benefits. Our lives improved, but it wasn't like we were rolling in cash. We had moved out of poverty status into the lower middle class status. Money was still tight.

I was never one of those kids who saved for a mission because honestly I never considered it until I was a SR in HS. My dad was proud when I decided to serve; I was the first in my family to serve a mission. The mission would cost $365 a month. My Dad's monthly tithing was about $365 a month. If he paid for both it would be over $700 a month and he just couldn't afford to do that.

My dad decided to skip out on tithing and fund my mish. The Bishop chastised him for this and told him tithing always came first. He should pay his tithing no matter what, and the ward would pay for my mission. My Dad had too much dignity to do that. Also, my Dad reasoned that it was sixes. He tithes $365, and the church turned around and gave him $365 back to pay for my mission. How is that any different than skipping tithing and just paying for my mission?

2 years later I arrived home, and a month after I got home, my brother left on his mission. So basically, my dad did not pay tithing for 4 yrs because he was funding missions.

About a year into my brother's mission I got engaged. I was going to be sealed in the temple. My dad's TR had lapsed, so he went to get it renewed a couple of days before the wedding. Of course, he hadn't been paying tithing for 3 years because he was funding missions. The Bishop knew this and told him he had to at least pay a years worth of back tithing before he would renew the recommend. This came to roughly $4000. My dad went out and got a loan and paid the money. I was pissed at the whole situation. My dad just said: "It was worth it to be able to attend my son's wedding." The sad thing is; in any other situation, no one would have to pay 4 g's to be able to attend their kid's wedding.

I want everyone who is teeter-tottering on whether the LDS church is for them or not to understand this story.

Forget JS marrying a bunch of teens, forget about the uneasy history of Mormonism, forget about DNA and the BOM, and the contradicting doctrines. All churches have these things in common to some degree.

The most f*cked up thing about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the way it treats it's own members and families. It claims to be pro family, but it splits up families and screws with people's lives. It makes them pay large sums of money in order to see a loved one's wedding. It takes, and takes, and takes. Whether it is your time, money, or sanity. It sucks you dry and does not give back anything of value except some pipe dream of a perfect afterlife. An afterlife which the church makes you feel is impossible to obtain, and uses this to heap unnecessary guilt upon it's members.

It's not the doctrine that makes the church a damaging cult. It's the way they screw their members over. Such as not letting a father attend his child's wedding unless he pays $4000.

> I do applaud your efforts as well, (I
> believe) I understand the position
> you are coming from. As I was once
> an atheist/agnostic.

Considering that I was once a theist/deist, we do seem to be coming at this question from essentially opposite directions. This is fun.

> The problem I could never resolve
> was for one to be "atheist" as the
> modern term means, you would
> have to have all of the known and
> unknown knowledge of the universe
> that speaks of God or about God for
> you to make a concise determining
> that there is no God, and in turn you
> would be God, this is like the stone
> paradox...

I'm sorry, but I don't follow you hear. The term "atheist" in the modern sense applies to two closely related but nonetheless distinct points of view. A "hard" atheist positively asserts that supernatural beings and forces do not exist. However a "soft" atheist lacks belief in supernatural beings and forces due to a lack of evidence, but does not positively assert that these things are not possible (improbable, perhaps...but not impossible). I fall into the later category.

I also don't accept the suggestion that disbelief in a "god" means that one is (or considers oneself to be) a "god." Saying that bigfoot doesn't exist doesn't mean that I am a bigfoot. It only means that in the absense of supporting evidence, it is highly unlikely that bigfoot actually exists.

> I've been through many phases and
> places in my life and my belief in God
> or Jesus is not one of blind faith,

Well...I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Unless you can provide actual and objective evidence to support your beliefs, then you are in fact engaging in "blind faith."

> chance or randomness, none of my
> family are Christians, so I never grew
> up with it. But the events in my life
> and the research I have done has
> lead me to the place that I am in,
> now my knowledge may grow or
> expand, but from what I have seen,
> studied and been a part of I know
> there is a god,

Can you be more specific? Also, can you describe the basis of your beliefs without relying upon anecdotal evidence? People are notoriously easy to fool, and religious revelations invariably seem to rely on observations that are conveniently beyond the reach of objective and independant verification. I'm not saying that's the case here (hence my request for specifics), but I have yet to encounter a theist who could provide an objectively testible basis for their beliefs.

> now I'm going to spare where this
> could go from here, but I will say
> that I have studied nearly all of the
> religions of the world, not all but a
> good number of them.

As have I...

> I needed to check religion "a" against
> religon "b", this wasn't what brand of
> toothpaste to choose type of comparison.
> You as one who deals in logic will
> understand this, "A" cannot be "A" and
> non "A" at the same time, so I went through
> and compared my "A"s and non "A"s and
> concluded that Christianity is the religion
> that not only makes sense historically, but
> the amount of evidence outside of the church
> during the time of Jesus and the time of the
> Apostles is fairly staggering.

I am going to have to challenge you here. Having evidence of christianity as a historical movement is not the same as having evidence that the supernatural claims of that movement are actually true. There are numerous claims in the myths of various cultures and religions (including christiantiy) that are demonstrably false. It was once the dogmatic assertion of christian faith that the world sat on a fixed point in space, and that the sun and the universe circled around it. Copernicus proved that this was false, and despite centuries of resistence from biblical authorities, even the vast majority of moder christians now accept that the geocentric model of the universe is false.

In order for the historical claims to be credibly acceptable, there needs to be some element of verifiability that will allow us to separate the actual history from the merely mythological elements of the story. Let's take the story of Newton's Apple as an example:

Sir Isaac Newton was sitting under a tree one day, when an apple fell from the tree and hit him on the head, whereupon he immediately conceived the Universal Law of Gravitation.

Now, this story acutally has some historical basis for it.

A contemporary writer, William Stukeley, recorded in his Memoirs of Sir Isaac Newton's Life a conversation with Newton in Kensington on 15 April 1726, in which Newton recalled "when formerly, the notion of gravitation came into his mind. It was occasioned by the fall of an apple, as he sat in contemplative mood. Why should that apple always descend perpendicularly to the ground, thought he to himself. Why should it not go sideways or upwards, but constantly to the earth's centre."

However, this story does not in and of itself provide us with any proof that Newton's theories about gravity are true. But, the story doesprovide us with a means to test the plausibility of its claims. All we need to do is go out and watch some apple trees, and see if any apples ever actually fall off and fly to the ground (or our heads, if we happen to be sitting in the right spot).

So, my question to you is this: What test can you provide that would allow us to test the plausibility of the claims of history (and primarily the bible) concerning the supernatural elements of the christian religion?

> I will leave you with this, a year and
> a half ago I was in a car accident that
> left a friend dead, another with a broken
> pelvis, myself with a broken shoulder
> & ribs and the driver with scrapes and
> bruises...

I am sorry for your pain.

> A friend a church said we'll pray about
> it and ask God to get you the money. I
> was a little skeptical myself, but what
> would it hurt I thought, so that was a
> wednesday, the next day I get a call
> from my lawyer...I know it doesn't sound
> like much but it was at the right time for
> exactly what I needed, I'm sure you can
> put it up to chance and all those things...

You're right. The events you describe can easily be explained as nothing more than a lucky chance. This is exactly what I meant when I mentioned anecdotal evidence above. Unless you can objectively demonstrate that this event was actually causal, and not simply a coincidence, then it really doesn't help your case. People pray for things all the time, and I think it is safe to say that those prayes appear to go unanswered far more often than they appear otherwise. In fact, there have been numerous scientific studies (for example) that have examined the effectively of prayer, and the evidence strongly suggests that there is none.

> And no I'm not added my misfortunes
> up to there is a God,

That is what it sounds like you're doing...

> but again I have seen enough to know
> there is something greater than I outside
> of this world.

I think that it is easy to confuse emotion with reason when one is faced with difficult challenges in one's personal life. But without rigorous objectivity, such arguments are not (to me at least) particularly convincing.

percivale

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"Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici." ~ V.