Thanks God! Myanmar Cyclone: Up to 100,000 DEAD!?!?
This is a Tragedy of Unfathomable Proportions
It has now been reported that the cyclone that hit Myanmar (formerly known as Burma) and pummeled the country for over 10 hours may have killed up to 100,000 people. At first they reported a few thousand, then 22,000, then in the 40,000's, finally the death toll has climbed to this astonishing and horrific number.
Just think of how our nation was devastated from Hurricane Katrina where the final death count was nearly 2,000.
This really really really should make you THINK. I am currently in the state of shock where emotion has been replaced by a sobering numbness. Without a doubt, events such as this should make you question your beliefs, what you've been TOLD to believe and how you THINK about the world in which we live.
Here is my question to those on Progressive U that hold religious beliefs: If you truly believe that God created this planet, then he must have created the weather patterns and the weather capabilities. Why, if a God truly exists, would this deity allow for such a weather system to develop and then create this catastrophic event in which an estimated 100,000 people have died?
Someone please explain this logically, with solid, understandable, straightforward rational. If you can somehow do so, I will be very surprised.
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I would imagine that the cyclone was created when heat from a summer sun evaporates some warm ocean water. The resulting moist air rises quickly, creating massive thunder clouds, cooler air sweeps underneath where the warm, moist air has just risen. The Earth turns, the new winds move and rotate faster and faster and then a cyclone appears. And the warm air lets it move. It wreaks havoc.
It's a tragedy. But God isn't sitting and watching and blowing air onto some clay figurines like Zeus in some stupid 1960s Greek Mythology movie like Jason and the Argonauts.
God created a world of natural phenomenon. Like gravity. If I jump off a 12 story building, gravity is going to pull me down and, most likely, kill me. If I step in front of a moving vehicle, something regarding natural laws says that 2 objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time and, well, a moving vehicle is bigger than me and has the upper hand.
These same laws of nature control things like hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, and even cyclones. All of nature is controlled by these laws, not just the ones convenient to the human population. These laws allow humans to create fire--which can keep us warm and cook our food, or destroy lives in the southwestern United States when the air gets too dry.
Why doesn't God just prevent all evils of the world? I don't know. Probably because that would take away all semblance of cause and effect. It's ridiculous to think that God would pick and choose to only prevent the disaster occuring in the form of earthquakes and tornados. God would also need to prevent other evils in the world. People want God to prevent some, not all evils. Could you function in a world without gravity or inertia? I couldn't. Yet, if I want God to take away the molecular reactions that cause a cyclone or the geothermic ones causing an earthquake, I can't discriminate and say I want God to just leave the gravity that kills me when I make that 12 story jump. I mean, what else can God do to prevent tragedy? I guess He could create force fields around those who want to drive through red lights (along with the ones the light-runners would hit). He could turn bullets into soap bubbles when they're fired out of a gun.
Oh, here's one. Let's give people migraines and chest pains whenever they have any negative thoughts about others... just to curb that pattern of thinking.
A world of Divine intervention would soon turn to chaos. it would turn into a world where individuals would have no room for free thinking, or freedom in general.
Maybe some people would like to live as a puppet on a string; I'm not one of them.
I'm not going to sit here and spew shit like everything happens for a reason and God does these things to bring out the strengths in people. That's bullshit. And so is the thinking that God causes it. God doesn't cause it, forces of nature do. And if forces of nature didn't cause cyclones, they'd do something horrible somewhere else.
You don't believe in a deity. What I wrote probably isn't solid, understandable, and straightforward enough for you. It's quite possible that no response will be. That's fine. That's your choice. But please don't go around telling people they should reconsider their own beliefs just because tragic events happen that we are powerless to stop.
I don't force my own beliefs onto others, and I would like the same courtesy returned to me. I choose to believe in a higher power. That's my decision and I don't deserve to be criticized for it.
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Not ProU
Some mistakes can't be undone/ it'll never be like it was/ and wishing for it only makes it worse
Rocky Votolato
That is a fantastic reply!
That was the best rebuttal of the classic "why does God allow tragedies if he exists argument" that I have seen in a long time.
Of course it leaves us with a very hands-off non-interventionist God. That is the kind of God that does not answer prayers. It is unlikely, no matter how hard you pray, that your God will heal you by growing you a new arm after an amputation. Your God probably does not often bother to intervene on one side or the other in wars either.
Oh well .... each to his own. I like your God better than most.
I don't see God as non-interventionist at all. Prayer does work. I don't think you can pray for a new arm though. I have come to understand that prayer isn't about asking God for things to change or for the things that you want like some sort of shopping list. Praying is talking to God, but one must also listen. God's plan isn't always our plans. This is why Christians pray for God's will to be done.
With that said, a cyclone killing people isn't necessarily a part of God's will. Somethings happen without a real reason. It just happens because of the laws of nature like our fellow member has already so eloquently explained. The same goes when people get sick. Some people get diseases because that's just the way it is. That's life. It's not God sitting around choosing and making people sick.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
Maybe there should be a scholarship for the best rebuttal! You are freaking awesome. God is not some kid sitting on an ant hill with a magnifying glass. (From the movie Bruce Almighty)
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
I can't take all credit for this. I had an incredibly awesome priest a couple years ago who had answers for everything and put these silly ideas in my head when I went to a series of classes he was hosting on apologetics. :-)
To this day, I cannot decide whether Bruce Almighty or Evan Almighty is the better movie. They are both pretty awesome... :-)
read my blogs!
ProU
Not ProU
Some mistakes can't be undone/ it'll never be like it was/ and wishing for it only makes it worse
Rocky Votolato
That's awesome. I hope to be like your priest one day. I want to be able to have the answers for everything because I know they are all there. It's a matter of doing the work it takes to get there.
And I'd go with Bruce all the way, but Evan was pretty awesome too. Either way, Morgan Freeman as God steals the show for me.
www.progressiveu.org/blog/americangirlinchina
Wow. I haven't been on here since I posted this blog, so I didn't realize that the Christians had been patting themselves on their back with emotional guesswork rather than logical reasoning.
Here goes...
"I would imagine that the cyclone was created when heat from a summer sun evaporates some warm ocean water. The resulting moist air rises quickly, creating massive thunder clouds, cooler air sweeps underneath where the warm, moist air has just risen. The Earth turns, the new winds move and rotate faster and faster and then a cyclone appears. And the warm air lets it move. It wreaks havoc."
Thanks for using science for part of your argument. It's a start! Go YOU!!!
"It's a tragedy. But God isn't sitting and watching and blowing air onto some clay figurines like Zeus in some stupid 1960s Greek Mythology movie like Jason and the Argonauts."
So far we still agree! oh boy!
"God created a world of natural phenomenon. Like gravity. If I jump off a 12 story building, gravity is going to pull me down and, most likely, kill me. If I step in front of a moving vehicle, something regarding natural laws says that 2 objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time and, well, a moving vehicle is bigger than me and has the upper hand."
Here's where we get a bit illogical. You were doing so well with the scientific statements and then you suddenly went mythical with "God created a world of natural phenomenon." Very, how would YOU put it... ZEUS-LIKE!!!
- You cannot prove that God made the universe and everything in it. Just as you cannot prove or disprove the existence of Zeus. Try it please.
"These same laws of nature control things like hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, and even cyclones. All of nature is controlled by these laws, not just the ones convenient to the human population. These laws allow humans to create fire--which can keep us warm and cook our food, or destroy lives in the southwestern United States when the air gets too dry."
Everything above is good, for the most part, except you cannot prove that Zeus, Allah, God, or one of the other thousands and thousands of "gods" had anything to do with it.
"Why doesn't God just prevent all evils of the world?"
From here on out you just start speculating. Just as you do with your belief in God.
"I don't know. Probably because that would take away all semblance of cause and effect. It's ridiculous to think that God would pick and choose to only prevent the disaster occuring in the form of earthquakes and tornados."
-Zeus/Allah/God/(insert favourite god here) supposedly created the world... pretty sure this omniscient and omnipotent being knew what "He" (why does god need a penis?) knew what he was doing.
"God would also need to prevent other evils in the world. People want God to prevent some, not all evils. Could you function in a world without gravity or inertia? I couldn't."
-You are still speculating... thus not making arguments...
"Yet, if I want God to take away the molecular reactions that cause a cyclone or the geothermic ones causing an earthquake, I can't discriminate and say I want God to just leave the gravity that kills me when I make that 12 story jump. I mean, what else can God do to prevent tragedy? I guess He could create force fields around those who want to drive through red lights (along with the ones the light-runners would hit). He could turn bullets into soap bubbles when they're fired out of a gun."
Just for fun I will respond to the above like this:
Indeed, if I want The Flying Spaghetti Monster to take away the molecular reactions that cause a cyclone or the geothermic ones causing an earthquake, I can't discriminate and say I want The Flying Spaghetti Monster to just leave the gravity that kills me when I make that 12 story jump. I mean, what else can The Flying Spaghetti Monster do to prevent tragedy? I guess The Flying Spaghetti Monster could create force fields around those who want to drive through red lights (along with the ones the light-runners would hit). The Flying Spaghetti Monster could turn bullets into soap bubbles when they're fired out of a gun.
- Luckily the The Flying Spaghetti Monster can do all of those things!!!
"Oh, here's one. Let's give people migraines and chest pains whenever they have any negative thoughts about others... just to curb that pattern of thinking."
- Even better yet. Let's give people Bibles and preachers who will tell them what to think and believe. You MUST believe that a magical deity created everything. You must also worship this deity or it will punish you for all eternity.
-OR we could try to understand the universe via a more logical, reasonable, and scientifically proven way, such as natural selection.... Nah, I'd like to stick to The Flying Spaghetti Monster/God/Allah/Zeus. Makes more sense.
"A world of Divine intervention would soon turn to chaos. it would turn into a world where individuals would have no room for free thinking, or freedom in general."
- So... those times that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (God) swoops down and intervenes were all made up?
"Maybe some people would like to live as a puppet on a string; I'm not one of them."
- Then maybe try THINKING for YOURSELF.
"I'm not going to sit here and spew shit like everything happens for a reason and God does these things to bring out the strengths in people. That's bullshit."
-agreed
"And so is the thinking that God causes it."
-AGREED
"God doesn't cause it, forces of nature do."
-AGREED
"And if forces of nature didn't cause cyclones, they'd do something horrible somewhere else."
-WHAT!?!?!
"You don't believe in a deity."
- Because you cannot prove the existence of one. Do you believe that fairies live in the bottom of my garden? Because they do! And the Flying Spaghetti Monster put them there!!! ;)
"What I wrote probably isn't solid,"
-check
" understandable,"
-check
"and straightforward enough for you."
-annnd check!
"It's quite possible that no response will be. That's fine. That's your choice. But please don't go around telling people they should reconsider their own beliefs just because tragic events happen that we are powerless to stop."
- Shouldn't you question your "faith" from time to time? Keeps you from being... how would YOU say... like a "puppet."
"I don't force my own beliefs onto others, and I would like the same courtesy returned to me. I choose to believe in a higher power. That's my decision and I don't deserve to be criticized for it."
- I'm sorry, I'll stop printing out copies of my blog and hand-delivering them to you/ reading them out loud to you in person.
Oooohhhh wait, you clicked on the link and then used your own eyes to read this and then used your fingers to type a response. silly me!
- I chose to not believe in Zeus/God/etcetera and until religious people stop trying to dictate how the nation is run, how my life is run, who I can marry, and what I can and cannot do based on a deity whose existence cannot be proven, I believe I will continue to exercise my constitutionally given right to free speech.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
you say, "if you truly believe God created this planet" and then ask the question "why, if a God truly exists. You, not me, created a hypothetical situation where a God does exist and created everything for the purpose of asking a question. Then you claim in the majority of your rebuttal that the answers to your hypothetical situation aren't good enough because they assume a God created the universe blah blah blah.
I replied to your hypothetical situation, based on my belief. And, given that my entire reply was in answer to a hypothetical situation where a God (or even a flying spaghetti monster) actually exists and created the world, I'd say it was a good answer.
If you didn't want an answer based on an assumption, then you shouldn't have asked for one. But, I apologize for wasting your time and making you read my bit of silliness.
And for what it's worth, I do maybe believe a little bit that fairies live in your garden, I don't think my deity cares at all who you marry, and I don't think, at all, that the nation should be run based on the laws of my Deity, or anyone else's.
But I also don't believe abortion is murder or premarital sex is wrong, so I'm probably doing the whole God thing wrong anyway. Whatevs.
I also question my faith often, which I believe is incredibly different than reconsidering it. But if you meant it in the sense of "questioning faith" then, yes, I agree. People should do this as much as possible.
read my blogs!
ProU
Not ProU
Some mistakes can't be undone/ it'll never be like it was/ and wishing for it only makes it worse
Rocky Votolato
Look, I like reading your blogs. They're generally well researched and well written. They are sometimes condescending, but whatever...we all get a little self-important from time to time. My issue with this one is that you asked a question, waited for someone to bite, and then pounced with sarcasm and condescension. I can almost hear you yelling, "I got one! I got a bite!" My impression of this exchange is that you seem to be looking for a fight, rather than a discussion. If you really want to foster discussion on the matter, replying without being insulting is probably going to be more fruitful.
And the statement sawaboof made that confused you so much just meant that bad things happen all over, all the time as a result of natural processes. If it weren't a cyclone in Myanmar, it would be a tornado in Virginia or an earthquake in China. In short, shit happens.
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
I just replied to her sarcasm with sarcasm.
Additionally, if somone is allowed to read my blog and then go ahead and complain that I am going out of my way to attack their beliefs after they click on the post, read it, and then tell me to leave them alone like a 4th grader... I'm going to let them have it.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
Correct me if I am wrong, ThereWentTheWord. Is it that you wouldn't consider the existence of a God for even a second?
Because I have a question for you, if that is the case. And I mean this in the most sincere way.
If God does not exist at all who then or what created the laws of physics? Who said that when you combine two hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atom it will make water (H2O)? Who said that two positive charges push away from each other but a positive and a negative charge attractive each other?
I suppose the question I am getting at is who started it all, before life on earth, before the big bang?
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein
Considering the existence is not good enough “an excuse”!
http://www.loveearth.com/uk/film/
"Considering the existence is not good enough 'an excuse'!"
How is it "an excuse" when one is questioning why and how cyclones form? How is it "an excuse" when one is questioning the creation of the laws cyclones abide by?
Can you provide an answer, to the question, I seek?
Also, please elaborate on your poorly structured single sentence. You are obviously disagreeing with what I previously posted but you didn't even explain yourself....
"Far and away the best prize life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." - Theodore Roosevelt
http://www.loveearth.com/uk/film/
"Correct me if I am wrong, ThereWentTheWord. Is it that you wouldn't consider the existence of a God for even a second?"
I used to believe in a God and follow Christianity. I would say you have to be pretty cocky to completely rule out the very slim possibility that there could, could, COULD be a god. On the scale of 1-10, 1 being "There Has to be a God!!!" and 10 being "There is no God" I would put myself at a 9.9.
Once again I can reply to your posed question in the following way:
If God's creator, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, does not exist at all who then or what created the God? Who, if not The Flying Spaghetti Monster, created a God that said that when you combine two hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atom it will make water (H2O)? Who, if not The Flying Spaghetti Monster, created a God that said that two positive charges push away from each other but a positive and a negative charge attractive each other?
I suppose the question I am getting at is who started it all, before life on earth, before the big bang? ----> Answer: The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
What I am trying to say here is that just inserting "God" for the questions that have no answer for you doesn't actually do anything than create a more complex question: Who created God?
Indeed if God is as intelligent and complex as he is said to be, then I cannot fathom the difficulty it took to create him...
Math and scientific reasoning work to explain physics, the big bang, and natural selection. If you sit down and read about these things, they make sense. They can be explained.
By inserting God as your answer to everything you have not solved the problem logically and you have created a much more difficult problem: Where did this incredibly complex omnipotent omniscient deity come from? Who created it?
If your answer is: He just existed always... then that cannot be considered a valid answer on it's own merits.
A mystery for a more complex mystery OR scientific reasoning being used as a chisel to pick apart the "mystery."
Also, the following:
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein
Is a very misused and leading quote. You can either look up why for yourself or I can explain.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
"Also, the following:
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein
Is a very misused and leading quote. You can either look up why for yourself or I can explain."
I'm all ears.
I could take the time to re-write it in my own words, or I can just use a quote... since I am at work, here's the quoted, time saving version:
"Much unfortunate confusion is caused by failure to distinguish what can be called Einsteinian religion from supernatural religion. Einstein sometimes invoked the name of God (and he is not the only atheistic scientist to do so), inviting misunderstanding by supernaturalists eager to misunderstand and claim so illustrious a thinker as their own.
"One of Einstein's most eagerly quoted remarks is 'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.' But Einstein also said, 'It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.'"
"Does it seem that Einstein contradicted himself? That his words can be cherry-picked for quotes to support both sides of an argument? No. By 'religion' Einstein meant something entirely different from what is conventionally meant."
Here are some more quotations from Einstein, to give a flavour of Einsteinian religion:
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion."
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
"The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive."
And, incase you still aren't convinced that Einstein was not religious in any way of the sense that you may have hoped... an American Catholic Lawyer wrote the following on behalf of an ecumenical coalition to Einstein:
"We deeply regret that you made your statement... in which you ridicule the idea of a personal God. In the past ten years nothing has been so calculated to make people think that Hitler had some reason to expel the Jews from Germany as your statement. Conceding your right to free speech, I still say that your statement constitutes you as one of the greatest sources of discord in America"
Dawkins, Richard. The God Delusion. New York, New York: Bantam Press, 2006.
Are you going to respond to my other stuff in that post too?
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
"Are you going to respond to my other stuff in that post too?"
Why? I don't see a point to. Through your satirical remarks, i.e. "Flying Spaghetti Monster," I know that you are already unyielding to any other thoughts when it comes to religion. Which is fine by me, you think the way you think and I think the way I think. The thing that irked me, just a hair, is how your comments were full of satire. But you are who you are.
Thanks for taking the time to post those quotes; good brain food.
The point of inserting "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" in the place of the word "God" is just to show you that it really doesn't matter what your personal beliefs are in regard to deities or even what religion you are (or aren't). The bottom line is that it is not something that can be proven.
My satirical "belief" is just as valid as your belief.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
"You cannot prove that God made the universe and everything in it. Just as you cannot prove or disprove the existence of Zeus. Try it please."
Right back at you. You cannot disprove the existence of God, or that He made the universe and everything in it. So stop mocking those who choose to believe in a god, whichever one it may be. Stop trying to convince people that their beliefs are a lie. Until you find solid proof that what we believe is not the truth, we have no reason to take you seriously. Especially when you are going to be disrespectful in what you say and how you say it. All you're doing is being intolerant and inconsiderate. At least try to keep the condescending tone out of your comments.
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
--
The Story of Myself
"You cannot disprove the existence of God, or that He made the universe and everything in it. So stop mocking those who choose to believe in a god, whichever one it may be. Stop trying to convince people that their beliefs are a lie. Until you find solid proof that what we believe is not the truth, we have no reason to take you seriously. Especially when you are going to be disrespectful in what you say and how you say it. All you're doing is being intolerant and inconsiderate."
-As I said recently in our other blog conversation, I cannot 100% disprove god. However I can show that there is an incredibly slim chance that a deity exists. Furthermore, if one does, it is nothing at all like your religion or any other religion has ever described and worshiped.
- I am not going to stop trying to convince people that it is ridiculous to:
a) believe in a deity for which there is no proof
b) firmly believe that their deity is better than another deity, for which there is no proof
c) thus believe that they are right, they are "saved" for which there is no proof and then live their lives by a man-written book
etc etc etc
"Until you find solid proof that what we believe is not the truth, we have no reason to take you seriously."
- Response: Until you find solid proof that what I believe is not the truth, I have no reason to take you seriously.
- There really is no way to be respectful of someone's beliefs when you are telling them that they are being ridiculous and are most likely wrong.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N.
Now the UN has stopped sending aid, because the government is seizing it and refused to deliver it to the people who need it. More will die. It's infuriating!
http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/ediblewoman
Some in the midst of their experience might reconsider their own beliefs,
It seems having lost worldly reason due to politics, is a fine example of the disbelief it brings forward in trauma.
http://www.loveearth.com/uk/film/
Why is the subject titled "poor you"?
Because you have so little understanding and such a narrow mind. I would specify why I say so, but it's best you think about it yourself. Perhaps you can benefit more from it than if I told you.
Now, I question which of us are open-minded and have an infinite understanding. I conclude that with "no one" for an answer. We will forever learn, therefore never fully understand. Close-mindedness and open-mindness is but a relativity. Refering back to that we are forever learning, we may never be fully open-minded, therefore we're always somewhat closed. So I personally find the emphasis not on which catagory, open-minded or close-minded, you fall in, but on how wide the opening is.
It is wonderful, however, that you are questioning, for you do not learn if you do not ask. But have you wondered if your quest for an answer become a lost cause, that you are moreso complaining and arguing than simply questioning?
And think about this for a minute: Without all the sufferings, what is to remind us the beauty of Life? How would we know to appreciate the goods without the bads? Could you? I couldn't.
Our own beauty
http://www.loveearth.com/uk/film/
And yet some of us have much difficulty in seeing our own beauty.
And that's comin' at ya' from yer local redneck hippie.
--
The Story of Myself
haibane-asa
Was that commentary directed toward me, myself and I (^^^) ? If so, use the reply button please.
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -F.N
.
"Here is my question to those on Progressive U that hold religious beliefs: If you truly believe that God created this planet, then he must have created the weather patterns and the weather capabilities. Why, if a God truly exists, would this deity allow for such a weather system to develop and then create this catastrophic event in which an estimated 100,000 people have died?"
No solid proof here, but before you make a statement like that; please remember that not all "religious" people believe in "God" or a "God" who controls every aspect of people's lives.
Brandon-